Mr David Walder: I shall comment briefly on the question of comparability, which has run through the debate as a sort of theme. It applies equally to pensions as to pay. Pay is founded on the initial absurdity that it is referred to the Review Body on Top Salaries. Top salary it certainly is not. There is the myth that somewhere in the public service, or in various selected sections of the public service, it...
Mr David Walder: Precisely. The curiosity of our position is that we may start our service in this place at 62 years. It is possible to be elected to the House for the first time at that age. It might be thought that these are Committee matters, but they are points of detail that lead me to my main argument that search as we may we shall not find true comparability. Our pension scheme over the years has been...
Mr David Walder: With regard to Milan, it might help the Minister to know that when my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour) and I were with the German forces, it took them three minutes to instruct us before both of us fired it.
Mr David Walder: I trust that the hon. Gentleman will not criticise me if, when I speak later, I quote the views of private soldiers.
Mr David Walder: As on Monday, today I speak really rather more in sadness than in anger. Some elements in the debate that we had on Services' pay on Monday have appeared again this evening. I start by referring to one of them. In both debates we have had a suggestion from the Government Benches that by stressing Service difficulties and problems the Opposition are in some way making those difficulties and...
Mr David Walder: I hope that their careers will advance as quickly as did the brigadier to whom I have referred. Would that officer make that remark today? I think that that is almost more than the Minister himself can sustain. Even the hon. Gentleman, in the privacy of his room, must ocasionally reflect about cause and effect and ask himself why there has been a large exodus from the Army, particularly in...
Mr David Walder: In a sense, I am seeking information from the right hon. Gentleman. Is there no discernible difference due to the fact that the married UDR soldier is living at home, whereas the Regular soldier in Northern Ireland is obviously living not at home but in rented accommodation?
Mr David Walder: Is the hon. Gentleman under the impression that soldiers before courts martial cannot be legally represented?
Mr David Walder: There was a nasty moment. Mr. Deputy Speaker, about 10 minutes ago when I thought that the debate might have got out of hand—though I hasten to add that it had nothing to do with you. But with the contribution by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) we have now got back to pay and conditions. I was thinking that we might get right back to the whole basis of the debate,...
Mr David Walder: Is the Secretary of State aware that in the Services the view is not, as it is among trade unionists in the House, that a trade union is the solution to all man's ills, from dandruff to sleeping sickness?
Mr David Walder: The hon. Gentleman may be missing the point, that certainly there is considerable doubt whether some of the family benefits are payable overseas.
Mr David Walder: I accept that there may be something in the hon. Member's argument about pay. I was wondering about conditions. I wondered whether we had reached the ultimate situation in which a trade union which was operating in the Royal Navy said that it was thinking of having a strike because the conditions under which its members had to work—that is, the fact that the Polaris missile was...
Mr David Walder: I shall endeavour to stay within the rules of order, but I should like to take the subject of this Bill just a little further, if that is possible, Mr. English. I welcome the presence of the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, who is normally responsible for more sophisticated weapons. I hope that he can help me with this, although it may be something which goes off into the realm of...
Mr David Walder: As one who spoke last night in the debate and, I hope, kept within the rules of order as stated by the Chair, I feel that the basic problem is that for the full title of certain documents, especially those emanating from the EEC, to be set out might lead to a sentence of intolerable length. The problem for the Back Bencher is, I suggest, something on which you might exercise your mind, Mr....
Mr David Walder: One could be forgiven for thinking that in his opening speech the Minister was not talking about the Commission's proposals at all. He mentioned a large number of trees and the need to cut one down but he never seemed to make any reference to the wood. He juggled, as we all do in a debate of this sort, with acronyms. I think that followed most of them. I agree with the Minister that it is...
Mr David Walder: Is it not true that if trade unions were established in the Armed Forces the arguments that they would put forward about pay and conditions would be the same as those that my right hon. Friend is advancing?
Mr David Walder: The hon. Member has told us that he used to be a soldier. Does he not remember being told that he was on duty 24 hours a day and liable to be called out for service at any time? Does it not slightly conflict with the Service man's duty if he is also engaged in some other occupation?
Mr David Walder: It is a sad commentary on the Labour Party that, on a day when we are discussing a defence matter which requires, I suggest, no expert knowledge of defence but merely a familiarity with the plight of many of one's constituents, once again one sympathises with a Labour Defence Minister who is in the familiar position of the boy on the burning deck Whence all but he had fled", apart from the...
Mr David Walder: The hon. Gentleman and I had the distinction of serving in the best regiments in the British Army. The only trouble was that they were different. I shall not weary the House with facts and figures. Everyone concerned with Service pay knows what I might call the basic figure. The take-home pay of a second lieutenant and a private soldier—and their equivalents in the other two Services—is,...
Mr David Walder: I think that we have examples in the code of traffic signs which have the force of law. But those not included also have the force of law. By what process of selection might the Minister change the examples given in the code? By what standard will he judge this? It is reasonable to Fay that someone reading the code might think that those selected were more significant than those that were not...
