Mr William Rodgers: Pleased though I am to be able to raise this subject, I am astonished at the failure of the Secretary of State for Defence to be present, I heard accidentally that he would not be here because he is making a political speech in Berkshire. In view of the importance of the subject, which has been raised many times and will arise again, his absence is a dereliction of duty. I say that in the...
Mr William Rodgers: The hon. Lady is reading from my pamphlet, from which I have also read. There is nothing in the pamphlet from which I wish to dissent now. What I said about elaborate procedures to avoid a mad general pressing the button is as true now as it was then, and I am satisfied with the arrangements. The hon. Lady will know, and if she does not I must remind her, that on 13 December 1979 I raised the...
Mr William Rodgers: The Minister referred to a joint decision on the use of bases. As this is an important matter, will he explain exactly what he understands by "the use of bases"? Does that explicitly involve the launch of missiles, and if so, does it also involve their arming, which, as he knows, in the case of cruise takes place at a later stage?
Mr William Rodgers: As this is an important point, I should make it plain that, as I said, the arrangements for Thor missiles were much more explicit. In 1950–51 there may have been no demand for greater explicitness, as the Minister said, but there is a demand now. If it could be done for Thor, and given the fact that the knowledge of these arrangements exists elsewhere, why cannot the Government lift the...
Mr William Rodgers: With respect, the Minister cannot have it both ways. Either he argues that because this information is and should remain classified he cannot give it to the House or that the Prime Minister is not prepared to give it, which would apply to Thor, or, if it is possible to give the information about Thor because of the dual key, that is no reason why information should not be provided now about...
Mr William Rodgers: The hon. Gentleman said "now". It is a question of principle whether cruise missiles should be dual key. He said that at the time of the decision in December 1979 the United States Government made it clear that to have a dual key system we would have to purchase the missile. Can he say, categorically, that that is still the view of the United States Government, and that they are now saying...
Mr William Rodgers: It is only right to say at an early stage in the debate that for over 30 years successive Governments have tried with more or less conviction to create an efficient railway system and none has wholly succeeded. When I was Secretary of State for Transport I said that there should never be another Beeching and I am happy to repeat that today. Just as the Beeching report, published exactly 20...
Mr William Rodgers: I am well prepared to say that that is the case. If those are services maintained with public money, a load factor of 20 per cent. is disturbing. I am not commenting on any one particular service, but that is something of which we should take note if we are to have value for money and if the railway is to serve its customer, which is what it exists for. It is true that the British Railways...
Mr William Rodgers: Indeed, I have. I do not hold the railways responsible for the problems and nor have I said that I do. But it is crazy to be blind to these considerations. If we want to ensure that the railways have a proper future we should face the facts and not be blind to them. The British Railways Board has said that the London and south-east region alone loses £12 million through evasion of payment...
Mr William Rodgers: As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, the Serpell report comments on methods of collection. I do not want to refer to them further. I am only saying that the British Railways Board has made clear the scale of the evasion and £12 million would be a significant sum even if it were for the whole of the railways, which it is not. In the White Paper of 1977 it was said that there had been a...
Mr William Rodgers: The hon. Gentleman is right. These are all factors that must be considered. But if we want to preserve a national railway network, which I do, and if the House recognises that there must be a subsidy, this does not preclude some constructive thinking in new directions. I praise Sir Peter Parker's leadership. From the beginning, he identified himself with the railway. He was no doubt...
Mr William Rodgers: The right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) was as fascinating as usual in his arguments, although his remarks were not short of contradictions. I agree with him that there is widespread anxiety about the steel industry and that it is in danger of total demise. We are having this debate because the steel industry is facing catastrophe. We are asking ourselves why and seeking to find our...
Mr William Rodgers: A complete ban would be very damaging to our wider trading interests. I believe that the Government were slow off the mark in examining whether voluntary agreements were being met and that they must prosecute this leg of their policy much more strongly, but, in the light of the world trading picture and the breakdown of the GATT negotiations last weekend, a total ban would not be the best...
Mr William Rodgers: The argument is simple. The shipbuilding industry is nationalised and the Ministry of Defence is the largest customer of its shipbuilding section. The shipbuilding section is often successful in obtaining foreign orders. If that is so, how will a privately owned warship building sector be more able to attract the orders that it does not attract at present?
Mr William Rodgers: For a large part of this afternoon we have been discussing the privatisation of the public sector. No doubt we shall do so during much of this debate. If the autumn statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday had been a prospectus with which to launch a company, nobody would conceivably have bought the shares. It was depressing on every possible count. As has been pointed out to...
Mr William Rodgers: There was a very good case for the national insurance surcharge when it was introduced, because there were no problems of unemployment rising on the scale that we have seen in the past three and a half years or of unemployment at the present level. The strongest case against the national insurance surcharge is the present level of unemployment and the prospect that it will rise further. That...
Mr William Rodgers: It was entirely necessary in the circumstances at the time. The Secretary of State for Industry asked why I supported it then and do not support it now. The truth is that the economic circumstances of the country have wholly changed since 1976. That is the truth and there is no getting away from it.
Mr William Rodgers: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. The Government's response to this failure of performance is not to get rid of the national insurance surcharge, which they should have done, but to go for a further programme of privatisation, which is wholly irrelevant to the major economic and industrial needs of the country. The official Opposition are more or less committed,...
Mr William Rodgers: There is a pendulum. What is worthy of serious study is private capital in the public sector. There is an important difference between allowing a nationalised industry to go to the market, for which there is a very good case, and deciding to transfer majority shareholding in the way that the Government are doing through legislation. The two policies are poles apart. I am more than prepared to...
Mr William Rodgers: I join the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) in paying tribute to the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Clarke) who made such a fluent and confident maiden speech. I found it difficult to disagree with anything that the hon. Gentleman said, and I greatly enjoyed his graphic description of his constituency. The hon. Gentleman referred to his constituency as the...
