Sir Eric Geddes: I beg to move, in Subsection (1, c), after the word "undertaking" ["servants of any undertaking"], to insert the words "of the whole or part This Amendment is only one of drafting. The powers given under Sub-section (1, b) of Clause 3 are that the whole or any part of an undertaking may be taken possession of. This Amendment merely puts into (c), which shows what the Minister may do when he...
Sir Eric Geddes: I beg to move, in Subsection (1, c), at the end of paragraph (i), to insert the words subject, however, to the provisions hereinafter contained respecting references to the advisory committees established for advising as to directions on the matters aforesaid. This, again, is merely drafting. It is to provide for consultation with the Advisory Committee.
Sir Eric Geddes: I think, in whatever other place in the Bill this might be suitable, I ought to ask, on a point of Order, whether it is applicable here, because a road is not an undertaking. This Clause only deals with undertakings.
Sir Eric Geddes: They are not "undertakings."
Sir Eric Geddes: I accept the Amendment.
Sir Eric Geddes: There being no change in the law, as the hon. Member said, there will be no difficulty in giving him an assurance on the point. But it is not a question of the law of the land. It is a question of custom. Timber and other commodities are, according to custom, carried by measurement weight and not by Statute. Statute enables and authorises what is known as machine weight to be the basis of...
Sir Eric Geddes: It may be convenient to the House that I should answer the question at this stage, because it is fundamental. My hon. Friend who has just spoken is under a misapprehension as to the duration of the Ministry. The Bill sets up the Ministry permanently. It gives certain powers temporarily, but the transference of the powers under Clause 2 is the transfer of powers to a permanent Department, and...
Sir Eric Geddes: I think there is nothing at all in principle between the Government and my hon. Friends who have moved this Amendment. We desire just as they desire that there should be full justice done to the staffs, and, if I may, without transgressing the rules of Order, just explain what the position is as regards arbitration under this Clause, I think it will help the House. The first point on which...
Sir Eric Geddes: I will come to that later. Thus there is arbitration if an officer or servant is transferred temporarily or permanently with his consent. The arbitration there would, of course, be on a question of fact as to whether the gratuities, pensions, superannuations, sick fund, or other benefits, were in fact being given to the man as he believed they were to have been given. Paragraph (iii) of...
Sir Eric Geddes: In each case the man has got to consent.
Sir Eric Geddes: It is not a question of compensation, but of allowance. You may wish to transfer a man, for instance, who is a clerk or a draughtsman, and to bring him from Derby or Crewe to London but he can only come with his consent, and you say to him, "Here is the salary, and you remain in the superannuation fund just as you were, and will you come if I give you such-and-such an allowance?" Paragraph...
Sir Eric Geddes: I have evidently failed to make myself clear. Under Sub-clause (vii.) arbitration is provided, and that covers any officer or servant who is affected by Sub-clauses (iv.), (v.), and (vi.). There is arbitration in Sub-clause (vii.), and there is arbitration in Sub-clause (ii.). In Sub-clause (iii.) there is no arbitration.
Sir Eric Geddes: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, iii.), to leave out the word "undertakers," and to insert instead thereof the words owners of the undertaking." This is purely a drafting Amendment. The owners of the undertaking is the wording which has been used throughout, and I wish, therefore, to substitute it in this Sub-clause for the word "undertakers."
Sir Eric Geddes: I fully sympathise with my right hon. Friend in his point, but the House has already agreed, in Sub-section (1) (i) of this Clause, that an officer or servant may be transferred permanently with his consent. I think it would be a serious thing for this House to accept this Amendment when it debars an officer or servant from accepting an appointment which ho wishes to accept permanently with...
Sir Eric Geddes: I do not think I said "any officer." I said it might prevent an officer entering the service of the State.
Sir Eric Geddes: I beg the hon. Baronet's pardon, but I did not say "my own Ministry."
Sir Eric Geddes: I accept it.
Sir Eric Geddes: If the facts were as my right hon. Friend opposite supposes, I think, undoubtedly, his proposal would increase the charge, and therefore, Sir, it would possibly be out of order. But I do not think the facts are as he has stated. Perhaps I could better help matters if I explain. I see where the mistake is. Prior to 1909—the date given by my right hon. Friend—the compensation given was...
Sir Eric Geddes: I am very sorry I cannot answer that question, but that is the position.
Sir Eric Geddes: The provision covers the whole period of possession by the Government, and if the word "Minister" is inserted it is of vital importance to the undertaking.