Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, I hope that something can be done about the language of new subsection (1). It reads like a translation from German. It states: "Where power is conferred on a regulator under or by virtue of this Part to impose a civil sanction in relation to an offence, the provision conferring the power must, subject to this section, secure the result in subsection (2)". Could it not be written in...
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, are we still addressing Amendment No. 57? Is it in order to speak to Amendment No. 57, or has that gone by?
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, I have a question for the noble Baroness, but I confess to the fact, for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, that I did not make any submission to Professor Macrory; I made no input into the pre-legislative inquiries conducted before the Bill came before the House. Nor do I think that I had any obligation whatever; and nor can that be a requirement before I am allowed to...
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, does my question permit of an answer?
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords—
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, is there an option in the matter? One cannot speak if the amendment has been withdrawn, and I was hoping to have an opportunity to say a few sentences. Today, all I wish to say is that, as I did when we discussed the Bill previously, I support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, has said in support of Amendment No. 55. I understand that, for reasons of expediency, it would...
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, have we not set up a Supreme Court to keep the judiciary away from the political process? In that case, why does the Minister cite the opinions that judges have expressed on this Bill as an argument to persuade the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment?
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, will he address the point that the language of Clause 38 speaks of a "relevant offence"? The whole of this is founded on the basis that there is an offence and that you get out of it—for example, under Clause 39(5)—only by having a defence that would completely answer a criminal conviction. In other words, the two systems are inextricably...
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, I yield to nobody in my admiration of this House; I think that it is a wonderful House. What I find completely astonishing is the attendance here tonight. Reports from two of our Select Committees have drawn to our attention the fact that unprecedented powers are being conferred on a host of local authorities and regulators; so they are. I have not yet seen any answer to what the...
Lord Neill of Bladen: As written, new Section 327A(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, under Clause 191 of the Bill, states that the responsible authority must, "consider whether to disclose information ... to a particular member of the public". As written, new Section 327A(2) has this presumption in it. Even if that is altered in language, something along those lines will be there. I thought that I understood...
Lord Neill of Bladen: I was not going to intervene on this, but I support what the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and my noble friend Lord Armstrong said. We should not rush to judgment on this proposal, which comes before us at a very late stage. We need to exercise the quality of humility; we do not immediately have present within us all knowledge and all wisdom. I was chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public...
Lord Neill of Bladen: The information is not and has not been properly before us. We have not had preparation time for this; there may be a mass of material that we could read, including earlier committee reports. My simple message is: let us not rush to judgment thinking that we are very wise today. There is no urgency about this at all. I have not detected any urgency. Even the learned Professor Dawkins does not...
Lord Neill of Bladen: I know that every second I occupy keeps the Committee from blasphemy—and I tender my apologies to certain Benches in particular—but I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. This is codification of one tiny bit of the law. It leaves out various things. The first thing that it does not do is state what the defence is. It is most extraordinary. The noble and learned...
Lord Neill of Bladen: Will the noble and learned Lord look at a learned article emanating from the University of Aberdeen which suggests that the whole of the law on self-defence is contrary to Articles 2 and 5 of the convention on human rights?
Lord Neill of Bladen: I have no objection to the addition that the noble Lord suggests; it is correct. However, I do not agree with what he said about the two judgments that he cited, the last being that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in the Martin case. I sought to demonstrate to Members of the Committee on Monday evening that there are two different and distinct currents of authority. The case of...
Lord Neill of Bladen: I am not going to move it. I have said what I wanted to say on the topic and I shall refer to a later amendment to be moved by my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd. That will suffice for the afternoon. Can the Minister confirm that the Government are still standing by subsection (5)(b), which is a statement of the Palmer test of Lord Morris, "that evidence of a person's having only done...
Lord Neill of Bladen: I welcome and support this amendment. Members of the Committee will be pleased to hear that it enables me to make the central point that I was going to make later on my own amendment, Amendment No. 138A. I welcome this amendment because of the language which would go into the 1967 Act and become a new subsection (1A) of Section 3, that language being, "the degree of force used was grossly...
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to indicate an answer to the question that has been raised on how far we are going to get? Is he planning to get as far as Clause 128, the clause in which I happen to be interested, as are the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Thomas of Gresford? When I came here today it seemed to be very well down the batting list and that we would get to it next...
Lord Neill of Bladen: Can an outsider join this conversation between four learned Members of the Committee? Ought one not at least to have in mind a human rights aspect? It seems that indeterminate sentences are now being handed out to people for whom the tariff would be two years. They then find themselves in a trap. To get out of the indeterminate sentence there is a doorway painted on a wall: "Come this way....
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords—
