Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I shall start by associating myself with the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, with regard to my noble friend Lord Kingsland. It was a delight to hear him speak in this House again. Perhaps I may say that I was sorry to hear that he felt he would be unable to take part in the Committee and Report stages. I fear that we will miss his experience, his erudition and, in...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Perhaps I may ask the Minister a general question which applies to the whole of this Bill. I understand that the effect of these amendments is to take Clause 43 and divide it between acts which include penetration and those which do not and to make different penalties depending on whether there is penetration or there is not penetration. What worries me is that in relation to the whole Bill...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I cannot but reflect on the fact that it is more than 21 years since I last spoke at the Dispatch Box in another place. I briefly do so tonight in place of my noble friend Lord Kingsland. I know that he would have wished to be present for this debate and to take part in it. Sadly, he is unable to do so. I am sure that all noble Lords in the Chamber will join me in wishing him a...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The purpose of Parliament setting a framework for sentencing is to give an indication of the seriousness with which it regards the offence. To replace the words "life imprisonment" with "a maximum of 14 years" may be taken as implying to the judiciary that for some reason an offence under Clause 2 is less serious than one under Clause 1. I cannot believe that there are not offences of...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: With respect, I do not think that it would. Clause 1 defines rape specifically as penetration by penis. Clause 3 describes penetration of various natures. It may be penetration by an animal, a knife or a fist. It would not be right for Parliament to attempt to send a message to the judiciary that in some way such offences are less serious than the offence of rape. As someone who is bitterly...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in moving this amendment, limited her remarks to Clause 2 and the rape of children under 13. I understand what my noble friend Lady Noakes has said and the position taken by the Opposition—and what the Minister has said. However, I notice that two other amendments are being taken here—in particular Amendment No. 31. That deals not with a clause that...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, returning to the Minister's answer to my noble friend Lord Waddington, he said that where the problem is caused by pubs or clubs, environmental health officers will have the power to close them. Do not the police or the licensing authority have an existing power to close a public house on objection being taken to the continuation of its licence? Is it proposed that environmental...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord agree that the right way is to increase the maximum available to the courts, as he is doing, rather than introducing mandatory sentencing?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I believe that the passing of the Act by the Government was both necessary and right as the Government's fundamental task must be to provide for the safety of the people of this country who are under threat of terrorist attack. Having said that, the sections we are discussing give enormous powers to the Secretary of State through his own certificate to provide for the detention of...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I want to speak briefly in support of my noble friend Lord Peyton. It has been said by Members on the Government and Opposition Front Benches that this is, indeed, an important Bill. It is the first serious attempt to reform the licensing laws so far as they relate to the sale of alcohol or the provision of entertainment for many years. It provides many new powers. Equally central,...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Anelay on this amendment. In Committee, the Minister said clearly that the powers available to those who carried out surveillance would not in any circumstances allow them to carry guns. But I suggest, as I did in Committee, that one must be realistic. If people are followed under surveillance in another country in connection with serious offences and...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I have put my name to this amendment. If foreign police officers are to carry out operations in this country, I believe that it must be in relation to a matter that is a crime within this country. I know that that is the Government's intention, as stated by the Minister in the debate in Committee. I also understood him to say that all crimes mentioned in the Schengen agreement are...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I support every word said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I hope that the Government realise that the minimum mandatory sentences that they propose will be unacceptable to many people. Far more would be achieved in the area of gun control by preventing the importing of guns into this country rather than worrying about mandatory sentences which, as the noble and learned...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: This is rather like having an old age person's pass. If you get an OAP's pass you pay less fees irrespective of your financial position. Surely we want the Government to accept that fees should be set at an affordable level for those who do not have the advantage of total avoidance through having an OAP's pass.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The only point that I wanted to make follows from what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson of Lymington, has just said in his powerful speech. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, limited the scope of his remarks to the commercial court. What the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson of Lymington, said applied a great deal to the commercial court and the fact that full fees should be paid in...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I ask in total ignorance, I am afraid, but is the present position that the application to transfer a case has to be heard by a High Court judge? I thought it could be heard by a judge at the Old Bailey or a recorder. I had not realised that it required a High Court judge. I thought the power was wider. There is no need for a High Court judge if it is obviously for the convenience of...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I should like to return to the point. I have to my knowledge been involved in an application which, although heard by a High Court judge, was heard in chambers. The case involved a major drugs case which was moved from Manchester, I think, to Newcastle. Although I suppose that it might have been put right by a formal application in court thereafter, the whole of the argument took place in...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I hesitate to raise a matter at this late stage in the Committee. I merely ask whether this provision is necessary. Must we now have two additional bodies—the head and the deputy head of civil justice? We have a Lord Chief Justice, a Master of the Rolls, a Vice-Chancellor and a President of the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division. What will be the role of the two new appointees? Is the...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My second question was whether the head and the deputy head of civil justice will also have a judicial role, or whether they will be full-time administrators. Can the head of civil justice also hold the post of Master of the Rolls?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Like my noble friend Lord Waddington, I am concerned about the wording of Amendment No. 81 which states: "An officer may carry out a search . . . only if he has reasonable grounds to believe— (a) that the person is in possession of an article which ought to be surrendered". I find it difficult to see how a court security officer showing people into the public gallery of a court will be able...