Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: If a person was convicted of murder in France and acquitted under French law, and there was new evidence, does that mean that there would then be a power to apply to retry him in this country under English law? On what basis—I know we shall turn to these conditions later—would that court know whether the evidence was genuinely new evidence available in another country at the time of the...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Subsection (4) appears to be most extraordinary. As I understand it, it gives a power totally dissimilar to anything that we have previously had in criminal law in this country. Do I understand correctly from what the Minister said that someone could be acquitted—let us say, in the Caribbean or in France—of one of the 81 offences listed in the schedule to the Bill? And do I understand...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: May I support most strongly my noble friend Lady Anelay on this amendment? I ask the Attorney-General what is the purpose of this new clause. It states: "If the accused instructs a person with a view to his providing any expert opinion for possible use as evidence at the trial of the accused, he must give to the court and the prosecutor a notice specifying the person's name and address". If...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: In a debate on a previous clause, I thought that the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General said that the probation service was not to have anything to do with the conditions as regards these cautions. If so, who is? I do not understand who will monitor and control the conditions relating to facilitating the rehabilitation of the offender if it does not in some way come under the aegis...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Perhaps I may—
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Is the Minister sure that he was right when he used the word "convicted"? He said that the probation service had dealings only with people who had been convicted. Does it not also have powers over people who have been bailed and are in bail hostels?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I welcome the new clause and the comments of the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General about the principle. As I understand it, the amendment is an attempt to widen the power to caution to cover those who might otherwise be tried and might end with other forms of penalty. The conditions are very similar to the present power of the police to caution a defendant. However, with this...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, what is the position in relation to those who have been arrested but later not charged?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Does the Minister agree that there is a difference between the right, in the course of an investigation, to take fingerprints and other samples as against the right to retain them after a person has not been charged or has been acquitted? It seems to me that those are two different issues.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: That is an argument for everyone in the country to be fingerprinted—and that I can understand. I am worried about those whose fingerprints are taken in the course of examination and who are not proceeded against or are acquitted. Their fingerprints are retained but we do not have general fingerprinting for all people. Surely, there is an issue here.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I listened carefully to what the Minister said. In some ways, we are now dealing with semantics. The Minister gave the example of putting five—or was it eight?—coats that she had bought at Selfridge's, and at John Lewis's on the way, into one bag that is then sealed and signed by her. I accept that that is a recording by the police of what they have received from her. We are probably now...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: If ever there was a totally non-party political clause in this Bill, it must be this one. My objection, like that of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and my noble friend Lord Hunt, is purely pragmatic. If the provision is the suggestion of the police, they will cause themselves greater trouble than they will save. I realise that making a list of an individual's possessions in the station takes a...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Did he not say Harrods?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Following on from what my noble friend Lord Waddington has said, if one accepts the premise that the time one should be held in detention prior to charge should be as short as possible, on what basis do the Government justify making this change at all? Am I right in saying that all the research that has been done and figures that have been collated show that the average time for which people...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The Minister said that it would be better to deal with the question of whether there should be a final date in a later grouping; that is, when we come to the amendment which, at page 3, line 18, specifies after the word "subsequently" a period of two weeks. Surely the present position is that there is no time limit from the date of the granting of bail until the person is required to turn up...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I want to speak briefly to Amendment No. 12 in order to remind the Minister that he will, I hope, deal not only with the question of whether there should be a time limit between a person being arrested and his being given notice of the requirement to attend, as the amendment suggests, but also with the question of whether there should be a time limit between the time of his arrest and the...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. As I understood it—perhaps I have misunderstood; if so, I apologise—the amendment of my noble friend Lady Anelay related to the delay between the person originally being bailed and eventually being taken to the police station. If so, my understanding is that the present position is that we have a welcome power—I certainly welcome...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I accept the Minister's comments about the question of continuous loud noise. That would undoubtedly qualify as "public nuisance" that would be taken into account. Surely the matters that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, mentioned do not amount to public nuisance, but they still affect the lives of those people living in the area. So, at the one stage it is a broad definition of...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, I begin by offering my personal congratulations to the noble Baroness and to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, on their new positions. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, told the noble Baroness that it was like taking a rather large, late return. I have no doubt that she will have much time to mug it up, if we are...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord said that there will be consultation. Will the time allowed for that consultation be more, the same or less than the time allowed for consultation over the abolition of the post of Lord Chancellor; the decision to go for a supreme court rather than the House of Lords as the final court of appeal in this country; and the whole question of the appointment of...