Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, am I right in saying that no other country has yet implemented this agreement in their domestic law? Is that still the situation? If so, then what the Minister has said must be wrong.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I made it clear in Committee and earlier at Report stage that I am concerned about doing away with the rule of dual criminality. As I understand it, my noble friend's amendment would—while accepting that the House has accepted Part 1, relating to the European arrest warrant—require that the safeguard of dual criminality should still apply to any application from a category 1...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I shall briefly support my noble friend Lady Anelay on the amendment. When we debated an identical amendment upstairs in Committee, the then Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, said that he would reflect on what we said. Although he held out no great hopes of agreeing with our proposal, he nevertheless made clear that he would reflect on it. He said that he believed it important...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: We come towards the end of the Committee. I hope that many feel, as I do, that the issues that we have raised have often crossed party lines. I am bound to say that many of the sentencing provisions of the Bill are not proposals that I would wish to see. I do not believe that the Government have thought out their effect on resources, as my noble friend Lord Hunt has said. The minimum...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I do not wish to prejudge what may be in the report, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, appears to be doing, but will it deal with the scope of the scheme and those who will come within it in future? What will be its limitations?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The Minister says that the consultation paper may be out in two months. Do I take it from that that there is no intention of having any parliamentary proceedings prior to that, such as orders that deal with the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: In supporting the amendments moved by my noble friend Lord Hunt, I repeat the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas. My noble friend referred to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board. Is any review taking place at the moment of the scope of the board? If so, what are its terms and when will we know its outcome?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I do not accept my noble friend's argument. I am not sure what the phrase "whilst it is with two or more people" means. Does it mean that those people have to be present? How does one show that they were present at the moment when the act was committed? In those tragic cases where children are shaken—that is what normally happens—in order to cause injury or death, the act is usually...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I am full of admiration for my noble friend Lord Waddington and I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. I fully understand what is behind the noble Baroness's intentions in proposing the new clause. However, I come to a different conclusion from that of my noble friend Lord Waddington or of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. I hope that the Government will make it clear...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, having been responsible for introducing the assisted places scheme, does the Minister accept that that scheme provided educational opportunities for many people in inner-city areas, which they otherwise would not have had?
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I am grateful for and accept the explanation why the Government have decided to change the system from one in which a prisoner is merely eligible for parole at the half-way stage to one in which he is automatically released from the second half of the sentence. I still do not understand—with respect, I do not believe that the Minister answered the question—where the 135 days comes in....
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: A few weeks ago the Government had acquired a reputation for excessive spin. In terms of this Bill, it appears to have moved very quickly from excessive spin to excessive stealth. Clause 176 introduces the concept of weekend imprisonment, which I welcome, but without any real announcements at all. In Clauses 235 and 236, effectively, we are doing away with the parole system as we have known...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, is partly right and partly wrong. I did chair a committee that reviewed the parole system. He is right in believing that he was not a member of it and that the Lord Chief Justice named the judge who was a member. We were limited to considering parole, however, and what we recommended was what has been the position since—that all those sentenced for...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Would the Minister agree that it is important for the following reason? These are offences for which, in any event, the court can, if it wishes and thinks proper, pass a sentence of life imprisonment. If it finds that there is a significant risk, the Bill goes on to say that it "must" pass a sentence of life imprisonment. Surely, therefore, if you have the difference between the discretion of...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: The noble Baroness has been very kind in dealing at length in answer to the question that I asked her about the clause. Is she saying that, under Clause 218, if a person is convicted before the magistrates' court of assault occasioning actual bodily harm—which she will know can cover a broad range of offences, however low in the order of assault occasioning bodily harm it is—and if it is...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said. The effect of the clauses taken together is bound to mean a substantial increase in the use of life imprisonment and in sentences of indeterminate length. In themselves, they are bound to increase the prison population. What is more, they are likely to have a knock-on effect on the length of sentences given for other offences of that...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I accept and concede to being totally confused, but I think that we are covering amendments that cover the whole of Clauses 174, 175 and 176. I could say to my namesake that the partial reason for my confusion may be that I have been out of the Chamber for the past 20 minutes, but was apparently speaking most of that time. I was in the Chamber while I was outside the Chamber according to the...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: In view of the Minister's comments about my criticisms of verbosity in the Bill, she will appreciate that I do not feel that I can totally support my noble friend in adding the words in Amendment No. 173D to the Bill, as that would extend it by three lines. However, I strongly support my noble friend on the principle, purpose and importance of the amendments in reminding the judiciary what is...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Perhaps I may say to my noble namesake that I do not think that he could have been sitting in his place yesterday when, as I understood it, the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, publicly withdrew the words in this proposed subsection because of the very point that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has made. I thought that the noble Lord implied that we would not see those words again. He accepted that...
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: It is fair to say that where the Bill refers to "civil servants" one does not immediately think of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Those who have held that role have always been looked upon as independent members of the Bar or solicitors, not as civil servants. If that is what the Government intend, would it not be better to specify that the Director of Public Prosecutions should be one...