Lord Grabiner: Perhaps I may respond briefly to those points. I did say "magistrates' court" and the amendment refers to "a magistrate". I presume that what is intended is that the matter can be dealt with by a single magistrate, and I stand corrected accordingly. However, it does involve the judicial process. I do not know how one goes about that; I have not been in such a place for many years. But I am...
Lord Grabiner: First, the example is a "homely" one. But what was absent was the existence of another party in the double room. By itself it would be entirely innocuous information. But that is beside the point and not much to do with social security fraud. The noble Earl talks about the information being available at large, but that is not the case. We are dealing with information which will be known, on...
Lord Grabiner: As I understand the proposed amendment, the individual seeking to obtain the order has to satisfy the magistrate that he has reasonable grounds for wanting the order. So ex hypothesi he must have the information before he goes to the magistrate. He cannot go to the magistrate with a blank piece of paper. He must say, "These are the facts of the case. I reasonably believe that an offence has...
Lord Grabiner: As I understand them, these amendments would render the Clause 1 powers expressly subject to the approval of a magistrates' court. I believe that the practical effect of the amendments, were they to be agreed, would be not simply to diminish--I believe that that was the word used by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, a moment or two ago--those powers but, in my view, to emasculate them to the...
Lord Grabiner: The concerns that drive the answer to the question of whether or not the obtaining of a search warrant should be made subject to an order of the court would no doubt depend on the particular context. I know, for example, that such procedures and provisions apply in relation to serious revenue offences, or to the suspicion that there has been a serious revenue offence. However, it does not...
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, the purpose of the Bill is to introduce powers which would significantly improve the ability of the relevant departments of government to tackle benefit fraud and error. There are good grounds for believing that the amounts of money involved are substantial and that the increased powers which are proposed would, in a balanced way, have the effect of deterring fraudulent behaviour,...
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, in a sense, that is true whenever powers are granted. One has to have regard to the fact that there is a possibility that powers, when granted, may be abused. However, if the powers are abused, it is to be hoped that that will become apparent and plain and that the appropriate remedies will be made available, either through the process of judicial review or the appeal process to be...
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, of course they do, as we know. Even then I would suggest that that does not provide justification for not assuming the powers and getting on with the job that needs to be undertaken. It is simply not good enough to say that it is too difficult a problem or that there are people out there who may behave in an improper fashion. That is not a good enough answer to the problem. We have...
Lord Grabiner: asked Her Majesty's Government: What grants they have made towards marriage and relationship support in the current financial year.
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way.
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, with great respect, whether or not the noble Baroness wishes to give way is a matter for her. My understanding is that she did give way.
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, I do not want to detain the noble Lord any longer, because we have already had 17 minutes from him. I apologise to the House, but I cannot resist asking him a question. He drew our attention to paragraph 2.52 of the report and appeared to criticise my noble and learned friend because one sentence in that paragraph says that it was estimated that the company might need an additional...
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. It would be very interesting to see any passage in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General which supports the proposition that the company did not keep proper books, which I believe is the allegation that the noble Lord makes.
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, as has been said by a number of noble Lords, hindsight is a useful forensic tool. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Sharman, made a distinguished professional career almost exclusively based upon making himself an expert on the subject. It enables the investigator, with the benefit of perfect vision, to examine the relevant sequence of events and then to provide an expert opinion as to...
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, I am grateful for the comments of all those who have participated in this short debate and for the approach adopted by my noble friend the Minister.
Lord Grabiner: moved Amendment No. 35A: Page 27, line 25, at end insert-- ("( ) the Commissioners of Inland Revenue;").
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, before explaining the purpose of this amendment, I apologise to the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Phillips of Sudbury, for not having discussed it with them in advance. Yesterday I briefly mentioned it to the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. It has only just come to my attention that it may be appropriate to use this Bill to deal with this point rather than for it to be dealt...
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, I believe that a reply may be forthcoming.
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cope, understates his talents. He says that he is not a lawyer. However, I have always viewed the noble Lord as something of a closet lawyer. His legal talents are certainly evident on almost every occasion that he stands at the Dispatch Box. I do not think that the noble Lord said anything with which essentially I would disagree. The question is whether it is...
Lord Grabiner: My Lords, the Bill is commendably concise and to the point. That makes a welcome change from much of the recent and current business of the House where we have been looking at lengthy and complex draft legislation. I know that my noble friend Lord McIntosh will agree with at least that element of what I have just said. However, the succinctness of the document must not be allowed to conceal...
