Lord Grabiner: We have already debated the amendment in the context of Amendments Nos. 20 and 22. I beg to move.
Lord Grabiner: moved Amendment No. 39: Page 2, line 46, leave out from ("officer") to ("whose").
Lord Grabiner: I tabled the amendment in order to raise a question. As presently drafted, the power which would be granted by the Bill in new subsection (2D) is concerned with information to be obtained from utility providers. The intention is to give that power only to an authorised officer who is an official of a government department. My amendment would not limit the power to the government department...
Lord Grabiner: I understand that the expression "authorised officer" is elsewhere defined in the master legislation into which these provisions would go. I do not think that it would extend as far as the noble Earl suggests. I should have to be advised about that, but I believe that to be the position.
Lord Grabiner: This amendment gives rise to a classic "chicken-and-egg" debate. One should always be wary of such a debate because there may not be a solution readily to hand. The origin of the debate in this context lies in the second paragraph of Article 8 of the convention. That provides: "There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right"-- that is, the right to...
Lord Grabiner: moved Amendment No. 22: Page 2, line 26, leave out from ("shall") to ("is") in line 34 and insert ("be exercisable for the purpose only of obtaining information relating to a particular person identified (by name or description) by the officer. (2C) An authorised officer shall not, in exercise of those powers require any information from any person by virtue of his falling within subsection...
Lord Grabiner: I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for accepting Amendments Nos. 20, 22 and 38. I am also grateful to other noble Lords who spoke in support of those amendments.
Lord Grabiner: I respectfully agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, has just said. Apparently my noble friend Lady Hollis does not. We shall see how matters turn out. If the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is right, the words "or is likely to" add nothing to the words "is contravening". "Contravened" is the past tense; "is contravening" is the current tense; "is likely to contravene" is surely...
Lord Grabiner: moved Amendment No. 20: Page 2, line 24, leave out ("subsection") and insert ("subsections (2C) and").
Lord Grabiner: In moving Amendment No. 20 I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 22 and 38. I shall speak in support of Amendment No. 32 and say something about Amendment No. 29. For the purpose of Amendments Nos. 20, 22 and 38, it would be helpful for Members of the Committee to have handy a copy of the Bill, otherwise what I say will be essentially gibberish. Amendments Nos. 20 and 38 are consequential to...
Lord Grabiner: By way of information and in response to the points just raised by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, perhaps I may say that I dealt with this point very fully in my report. I do not believe that any subsequent relevant statutory amendments have been made. The noble Lord may find it helpful to look at paragraph 5.13 of the report, down to and including paragraph 5.18, which covers less than a page...
Lord Grabiner: This point is something of a chestnut. It presents itself frequently to courts and tribunals. The whole of our employment legislation rests upon the answer to the question, "Is X an employee?" If X turns out to be an employee, applying the control tests--the point made by the Minister--that person will come within the legislation. The alternative conclusion is that the person will be an...
Lord Grabiner: Perhaps I may deal with a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. When conducting inquiries which led to the production of my report, I also considered footprints. This is a point we discussed briefly on Second Reading. In the course of preparing the report, I interviewed a senior official from Experian, which is a major provider of the information we are discussing. The point that...
Lord Grabiner: The BP garage proprietor--I suspect that he was not the proprietor but a mere employee--simply said to me, as I presented him the card and he put it through the machine, "Is your address..."--I do not need to repeat it for the benefit of Hansard--and he gave me my address; it was absolutely correct. That came up on the face of his screen.
Lord Grabiner: I cannot remember it either, so it does not really matter. But perhaps I may make this point. In a sense, it does not really matter if the address comes up. What has to be appreciated is that probably such transactions are carried out 200,000 or 300,000 times a day. The decision on whether or not to grant credit in respect of a particular transaction is the effect of a positive reaction from...
Lord Grabiner: Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may clarify one point relating to the exchange which took place between us. It is probably better to have it in Hansard tomorrow rather than not at all. The exchange stemmed out of a point put to me by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. The example given was that of a dishonest investigating officer colluding with a newspaper and selling the information...
Lord Grabiner: Perhaps I may assist my noble friend and the noble Lord. My understanding--I suspect that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, knows more about this than all of us put together--is that any interest earned on any account in excess of £15 a year is information to which the Inland Revenue is entitled by statute without the leave of any court.
Lord Grabiner: I shall try to deal with the two points that the noble Earl made. On the first, I suspect that I was putting my argument inadequately. I pointed to the fact that the investigator has to be satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for forming the judgment that he has prima facie formed, and I discovered in the amendment that a similar test--indeed, precisely the same test--would be...
Lord Grabiner: The noble Earl's second point was about how far we should be willing effectively to erode the legal process in favour of the individual. I am not in favour of eroding any legal processes for any individual. Apart from anything else, that would be inconsistent with my professional life. The more legal process there is, the better off I am. I thereby disclose an interest. In a more serious...
Lord Grabiner: Perhaps I may respond briefly to those points. I did say "magistrates' court" and the amendment refers to "a magistrate". I presume that what is intended is that the matter can be dealt with by a single magistrate, and I stand corrected accordingly. However, it does involve the judicial process. I do not know how one goes about that; I have not been in such a place for many years. But I am...
