Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, we on these Benches give a qualified welcome to the Bill. It is short, as the noble and learned Lord said. It is indeed modest. Its proposal builds upon what exists and it is interesting that no more expenditure is envisaged, save for the housing of the inspectorate in a separate building. The prime recommendation in the Glidewell Report has not been followed. The Government...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I suppose that I should declare an interest. My father was a policeman. I was born in a police house. I spent the first five years of my life living in a police station, after which it became a magistrates' court. After that, my father was the prosecuting inspector in the town of Wrexham, a job which he held for 10 or 12 years. In my teenage years I used to leave school at one...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am not going to be lectured by representatives of police organisations when some of the problems that have occurred in the criminal justice system in this country over the past 10 or 15 years have been caused by the failures and negligence of the investigators and not by the lawyers, the courts or the juries. However, it is not the police, the lawyers or the judges and it is...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but it is too much. Does he not appreciate that that is precisely the attitude of the case-hardened magistrate about which we are complaining?
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lord, does not the noble Lord appreciate that often there is overcharging, particularly with the ethnic minorities in this country? People are charged with offences which are way above the conduct they have committed. What happens at the Crown Court is sensible discussion and negotiation. A basis for plea is worked out between the prosecution and the defence which enables the judge to pass...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, it is a feature in the Crown Court; it is not a feature in the magistrates' court. That is the point. There are experienced counsel who can arrive at a proper conclusion.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the noble and learned Lord a question. In his opening remarks today he said that the application would be similar to a bail appeal application to a judge. Is it envisaged that that would be in chambers and that if the defendant were on remand he would have no right to appear, no evidence would be given, and that it would all be done on paper, as happens with bail...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, is the Minister aware that her problem as regards lonely and deserted stations, and the problem of the noble Lord, are derived from the fact that seven separate franchises serve Wales? That is a ridiculous situation. Will the noble Baroness encourage the proposed strategic rail authority to introduce an all-Wales service so that the railways in Wales will at least become co-ordinated?
Lord Thomas of Gresford: The matter that has most struck me in the debate this afternoon was the anecdote of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Bingham. He referred to his experience of going to a Crown Court and being faced with a long list of defendants who had elected for trial. He told us that most of them pleaded guilty in the face of the Lord Chief Justice. However, there was one who was,...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the principle of additionality requires that structural funds are not to be used merely to replace national funds, and that the £35 million of match funding announced by Mr Alun Michael, the First Secretary, had already been announced as part of the 1998-99 Supplementary Estimates of the Treasury to meet pressures in roads programmes, the family health...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, it is encouraging to see that powers to deal with the common agricultural policy are transferred to the Welsh Assembly. I was particularly interested in the Sheep and Goats (Removal to Northern Ireland) Regulations. I wondered whether perhaps the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) Bill had somehow found itself to the Welsh Assembly. I also note that the Sludge (Use in Agriculture)...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I recall, when a Scottish crime Bill was passing through this House under the previous administration, there were, at about one o'clock in the morning, some seven of your Lordships present: two on each of the party Benches and one Cross-Bencher. They included three Scottish lawyers. There we were, laying down the criminal law and making massive alterations at that hour and with so few people...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I am fully aware of that but, of course, the method of appointment of the council differs. In England it is an appointment by the Secretary of State and it is right that there should be statutory guidelines for that. Here, the National Assembly itself will appoint the council and will do so in accordance with the policy. It will have the freedom of action to choose whom it considers to be...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I apologise to the noble Baroness if she should take anything that I have said as a criticism of her. I have heard her speak for the Government on Welsh issues. I know that her heart is fully in it and I apologise if I suggested anything to the contrary.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I support the Government in their opposition to this amendment. Again it is a matter that has already been covered by the National Assembly in Wales. It has considered the matter and it is satisfied with the provisions made in Clause 34 with regard to financial provision and its view should prevail.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I draw attention to one matter contained in the report of the post-16 education and training committee of the National Assembly for Wales. It states that, "The primary legislation establishing the National Council should be drafted in such a way as to allow the National Assembly to retain discretion and flexibility". Surely it is in the fields of finance and strategy that that flexibility...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I recognise and defer to the enormous experience that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, has had in the Welsh Office. He was indeed the anchor-man of the Welsh Office for so many years. I am sure that no Minister of State has ever had greater experience of the workings of the Welsh Office during his time. However, there is a danger that some of his proposals run along the lines that, "if...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for the assistance that the department has given us today. I should also like to congratulate Sir Ronald Waterhouse and his inquiry team on producing a painstaking and rigorous analysis of a huge body of evidence, which has faced up squarely to all the issues that have been disturbing the public, especially in...
Lord Thomas of Gresford: We on these Benches support the extension of the existing remit of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools in Wales to this type of education. We share the puzzlement of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, about what precisely is meant by the additional paragraph (b). I hope that we shall receive enlightenment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I have listened with interest to the points that have been rightly made by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy. On each of these points, I await an explanation as to whether there is no intention to create primary legislation on these aspects for Welsh matters. I make the point which I have made before, and which I shall continue to make, in relation to the subsection to which the noble...
