Mr Gareth Thomas: I am inclined to support the hon. Gentleman's viewpoint. For the sake of clarity, however, is he saying that if the medical evidence were stronger, the human rights arguments would effectively be overruled?
Mr Gareth Thomas: What effect does the Minister think that the recent revelations of racism in a number of provincial forces will have on recruitment, especially among ethnic minorities?
Mr Gareth Thomas: May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the massive extra capital investment in the NHS in north Wales, and in the Ysbyty Glan Clwyd hospital in Bodelwyddan in particular? That includes the cancer treatment centre, which cost £20 million, and new procedures to improve emergency admissions. Does he accept that that represents a huge contrast with the under-investment in the health...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am interested to hear my hon. Friend developing his points, speaking as he does from his experience as a solicitor. On the question of court apparel, he will be aware that that is the subject of some controversy, not only within the legal profession but society at large. Does he take the view that it would be appropriate not for the profession so much but for the Government to take a view...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's point about blackmail. Would not importing the proposed requirement into the Bill be rather counter-productive? Would not the mischief to which he refers be more likely to happen in those circumstances?
Mr Gareth Thomas: Is it not the case that, as a matter of good practice and good governance, the Government should not necessarily have a duty to make regulations? Does the Minister agree with me that it seems rather contradictory for the Conservatives, who so often complain about over-regulation, to require regulations to be made? It is not the first time during the Committee that they have made that sort of...
Mr Gareth Thomas: People are often confused in court and I know from experience that they often mistake ushers for security people.
Mr Gareth Thomas: As a member of the Bar, the hon. Gentleman no doubt recalls making applications to a judge or a justices' clerk. That is rather different from making applications before them, which suggests that those could be made on paper, not necessarily in person. The wording is not otiose in that respect. That is my stab at it.
Mr Gareth Thomas: I understand what my hon. Friend is saying. None the less is it the Government's position that, although the precise replacement for the Lord Chancellor has yet to be determined and is the subject of consultation, the Lord Chancellor will not be involved in judicial appointments? Is there not some merit in the amendment because of an anomaly? If the Lord Chancellor cannot appoint, he should...
Mr Gareth Thomas: The statutory guarantee preserving justices' clerks independence in relation to giving advice to their justices is crucial. That is a full answer to the point raised by the hon. Member for Surrey Heath.
| Sitting | Proceedings | Time for conclusion of proceedings |
| 26th June (a.m.), (p.m.) 1st July (a.m.), (p.m.) | Clauses 1 to 4, Schedule 1; Clauses 5 to 6, Schedule 2; Clauses 7 to 35; Clauses 37 to 45, Schedule 4; Clauses 46 to 65, Schedule 5; Clauses 66 to 85. | 5.00 p.m. on 1st July |
| 8th July (a.m.), (p.m.) | Clauses 86 to 94; Clause 97, Schedule 6; clauses 98 to 104; Clause 107; Schedules 7 and 8; Clauses 108 to 110. | 5.00 p.m. |
| 10th July (a.m.), (p.m.) | Clause 36, Schedule 3; Clauses 95, 96, 105 and 106; new Clauses, new Schedules and any remaining proceedings on the Bill. | 5.00 p.m. |
Mr Gareth Thomas: Opposition Members have made some effective points, but have overstated the case for accessibility. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston: we have to strike a balance between the need to manage the court estate strategically and the need to maintain localism and geographical accessibility. The case for keeping local courts open at all costs is often overstated....
Mr Gareth Thomas: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins). He made an amusing speech and we have benefited from his experience as a recorder. Judging from what he has told us, I certainly would not want to appear before him either as a defendant or a lawyer. He talked a lot of sense, as did my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Ross Cranston), who gave an account...
Mr Gareth Thomas: My hon. and learned Friend makes an important point about judicial independence, but does he accept that the way in which judges are appointed militates against that noble aspiration?
Mr Gareth Thomas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Gareth Thomas: Is not the hon. Gentleman in danger of ruining his basic point? We are all in favour of local justice, but surely he accepts that other factors are at play, as has been said. One simply cannot have a magistrates court in every provincial rural market town in England and Wales. It is not possible. Any responsible Government have to accept the need to manage resources properly.
Mr Gareth Thomas: What is the position of the hon. Gentleman's party on fees and the apparent need for civil justice to be financed by their inexorable increase? Are the Conservatives comfortable with the fact that the current system seems to be run on the full recovery principle?
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that response. Does he agree, however, that it was the Conservatives who, in 1992, introduced the idea that litigants should finance the system and that that has meant a huge inflation in court fees, often at the cost of access to justice?
Mr Gareth Thomas: Despite what is said by the knockers in the Conservative party who presided over a long-term decline in the health service, is it not the case that under this Government a record number of new hospitals have been built, a record number of nurses have been recruited, and a new cancer centre has been built at Glan Clwyd hospital in my constituency?
Mr Gareth Thomas: When Parliament reconvenes after the Whitsun recess, it will be visited by the Richard commission, which is not terribly well known. The commission will take evidence on a matter that may not be of immediate concern to many of my constituents but which is none the less important—the way in which democracy operates in Wales under the National Assembly. I am proud to be part of a ruling party...
