Mr Gareth Thomas: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. His comments about proportional representation have some interest in the context of the opening remarks by the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), who placed great emphasis on the need to protect minorities. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be appropriate for the Opposition to welcome that element of the proposals that will certainly preserve a...
Mr Gareth Thomas: Is not this an illustration of parliamentary sovereignty in operation? Tonight, we have heard much from Conservative Members about parliamentary sovereignty. Does my hon. Friend agree that Parliament determined the rules within which the referendum would be conducted and that Parliament, exercising its sovereignty, determined that there should be no threshold?
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am proud to speak in a debate on such a truly historic and momentous occasion, because we have the ability to vote for a national assembly for Wales. As a Labour Member, I should like to devote my speech to putting the cultural, patriotic and national case for a national Welsh Assembly. I realise also that there is a very strong, even overwhelming, democratic case and even—on this I...
Mr Gareth Thomas: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, Parliament being sovereign, it did not dictate that there should be a threshold for the referendum? In those circumstances, is it not a case of put up or shut up?.
Mr Gareth Thomas: Since the hon. Gentleman seems incapable of making his point, I shall make it for him. His amendment would delete the word "National" in relation to Wales. Does not that reflect the fact that the Conservative party is incapable of recognising that Wales is a nation and should be recognised as such? The Tories fail to recognise the fact that various nations make up the United Kingdom, which...
Mr Gareth Thomas: A remarkable concession by the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) rather suggested that the amendment has more to do with mischief making and raking over the coals of an argument that the Conservative party has long since lost than with anything constructive. It is, in the right hon. Gentleman's words, purely declaratory: it has no practical purpose. Why then introduce it? As a...
Mr Gareth Thomas: My hon. Friend may recall that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he would be prepared to review the electoral system in the light of experience. Will my hon. Friend make at that stage the representations that he is making now, to lift the debate on the issue in Wales? I agree with my right hon. Friend: my hon. Friend's points could have been made during the consultation...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I have some difficulty understanding my hon. Friend's point. The Bill contains no provision to reduce the number of Westminster representatives. Perhaps he could expand on that point.
Mr Gareth Thomas: I speak in opposition to the amendments. It is an interesting fact that, when the assembly elections are conducted on 1 May 1999, it will be the first occasion in the British isles when a system of proportional representation is used. That is an interesting and challenging departure. I cannot pretend that the system devised by the Government, to give legitimacy to the Welsh assembly and to...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for correcting what was undoubtedly an error on my part. I hope that the Committee will forgive me. None the less, it is a constitutional innovation for the United Kingdom to introduce a system of proportionality in domestic elections. One would have to concede that it is not the most elegant of solutions, but it is a workable solution which can be...
Mr Gareth Thomas: Yes, I took on board what the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) said in its entirety. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) for clarifying that point. The Government produced a White Paper which set out the electoral system in detail and it would be wrong for the Government to depart from the regime that has been put to the people of Wales in a...
Mr Gareth Thomas: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Welsh agriculture has distinct problems arising from its own distinctive features—such as the fact that so much of Wales is in a less-favoured area and is reliant on the livestock industry? In those circumstances, should not Wales have a distinct democratic voice? Will not such a voice enhance the role of agriculture in Wales?
Mr Gareth Thomas: The hon. Gentleman, as a member of the Bar, will be familiar with the term "otiose", which has reared its head many times in Committee. Is not his amendment otiose in the sense that there is nothing to preclude the Committee from taking advice and from consulting more widely? Why is it necessary to formalise it in the amendment?
Mr Gareth Thomas: That would not be democracy.
Mr Gareth Thomas: The hon. Gentleman has had considerable experience of student union politics and debating societies. Does he accept that the subject Committees will have to make hard decisions—they will have to weigh up the niceties of the argument—so they must be accountable to the electorate?
Mr Gareth Thomas: I did not expect that these amendments, touching as they do on co-option, would have generated so much controversy. I endorse the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson), who, in his opposition to the amendments, displayed a deep knowledge of local government, which perhaps was absent from comments made by some Opposition Members. Yes, the assembly has to be inclusive in...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am intrigued by the fact that my right hon. Friend does not have more ambitious aspirations for Wales. Does he accept that, if the process of allocation of resources is more transparent, a genuine debate will be fomented about the assessment of need within the constituent parts of what will remain the United Kingdom? There may be no unitary Government, but there will be a unitary Treasury,...
Mr Gareth Thomas: The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) makes is that the Barnett formula was predicated on administrative devolution. What distinction is there in principle between democratic devolution to accompany the administrative devolution that exists, and the original presupposition behind the formula?
Mr Gareth Thomas: Does my hon. Friend accept that enshrining the Barnett formula, with all its imperfections, in legislation will serve as a disincentive to the type of needs-based re-assessment that we all need in Wales?
Mr Gareth Thomas: I well understand the thrust of the arguments that have been presented to us so forcefully by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies). My right hon. Friend believes that, in the new era of devolved government, Wales needs an insurance policy. He thinks that it should have reassurance that it will not be worse off than it is now. As I understand it, that is the basis of my...
