Mr Gareth Thomas: Before we move away from part 1 of the Bill, which my hon. Friend will agree has been dealt with speedily, I have a point to which he could respond. If a sunset clause is not to be introduced in relation to leasehold for new developments, does he agree that the need for advice will be somewhat limited? He might want to reflect on the fact that there was considerable disquiet on Second...
Mr Gareth Thomas: It is clear to me from dealing with constituents who have problems with tenure, especially with retirement leasehold property, which is a feature of the area that I represent, that there is a need for the advice and persistence provided by LEASE. I do not share the views of the hon. Member for Torbay. My impression of the professionalism and competency of LEASE is favourable. I introduced a...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am grateful for that clarification. LEASE's burden of work will increase if the Government introduce a sunset clause, which would make commonhold a standard form of tenure for new developments. As the only Welsh Member present, perhaps it is appropriate for me to remark that this Government introduced devolution in Scotland and Wales. We can be proud of that achievement, which is part of...
Mr Gareth Thomas: Does not the case that my hon. Friend cites illustrate the need for a test of proportionality or reasonableness to be introduced into the clause, even if the Government are not prepared to go so far as withdrawing the remedy of forfeiture which one can, perhaps, accept is a remedy that should be available to a landlord in the last resort?
Mr Gareth Thomas: I congratulate my hon. Friends on the cogent manner in which they have presented their arguments on the clause. I share many of the sentiments expressed, although I would perhaps not go as far as others, because I accept that as a long stop it is necessary to preserve the landlord's right to forfeit in exceptional circumstances. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond constructively...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I understand the strength of that argument, but it might be more appropriate to ask the Minister. To conclude on what I hope is a valid point, the parliamentary draftsmen could tackle the issue before Report stage. There is surely a lacuna in clause 160.
Mr Gareth Thomas: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point when he says that the real abuse is not so much that forfeiture occurs in many instances—indeed, it appears not to—but that landlords use the threat oppressively. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we could make an important improvement to the Bill by introducing a mechanism to penalise landlords who use the threat of forfeiture recklessly,...
Mr Gareth Thomas: My hon. Friend is making important points. The mechanism that she refers to is an improvement on the law as it stands, as it provides an important sifting process. It is intriguing that, provided that the freeholder or landlord can establish that a breach has occurred simpliciter, he does not have to establish the seriousness or nature of the breach. That does not come into the equation. Is...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I agree entirely with the sentiments behind the Government amendment and I support it. I would like the Minister to address this issue, because it arises from my own constituency interests and those of the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd). We both represent seaside resorts on the north Wales coast. He represents Llandudno, that jewel of north Wales resorts. In that part of...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am grateful for that gentle reprimand, Mr. Hurst, which I accept in the spirit in which it was intended. Why should the welcome concession in the Government's new clause be confined to private dwelling houses? My understanding is that many hotel owners, probably not only those on the north Wales coast, are required by the freeholder to use a nominated insurer. That is certainly the case...
Mr Gareth Thomas: I am grateful to the Minister for her exposition. I am not entirely sure whether she has answered my query about the applicability of such a clause to business tenancies.
Mr Gareth Thomas: If I understand the Minister correctly, the Government are prepared to be open-minded about consulting, at a later stage, on a measure dealing with commercial leases.
Mr Gareth Thomas: On Second Reading, I raised the issue of the need to regulate property managers in order to avoid abuse and exploitation, particularly of older people. There is some support among Labour Members for the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Stone. The Government need to re-examine the issue of regulation of property managers. The area is prone to abuse.
Mr Gareth Thomas: I sat on the Standing Committee, and I confess that there were times during the Committee stage when I would have liked to be part of a fact-finding mission to Hawaii or Honolulu. The fact remains that there has been ample opportunity to test the argument on the unanimity point. I am prepared to accept that the Government have considered the position carefully in this place and another place....
Mr Gareth Thomas: I cannot answer that question—nor, realistically, do I think the hon. Gentleman expected me to. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will have a stab at it. Surely the point is that such schemes have a reputation for being too unwieldy and complex and for being the scene of constant dispute, and that they will therefore be a disincentive for the take-up of commonhold. I refer to the...
Mr Gareth Thomas: The hon. Gentleman did not mishear me. That is how I understand the position. Those who convert would have to find the means to buy the freehold in respect of the co-existing leaseholds. Another complication that would arise is that existing leases would have to be amended to take into account the dual regime. I am sure that the Government have considered the disquiet that Labour Members have...
Mr Gareth Thomas: indicated dissent
Mr Gareth Thomas: As the hon. Gentleman has said, the Government have given way and made concessions on other contentious issues. Does not that rather undermine his point that the Government's opposition on this issue is not principled and that they are stubborn?
Mr Gareth Thomas: The Prime Minister: I thought it was a very good question. My hon. Friend is of course absolutely right. The Conservatives never like being reminded that when they were in office interest rates were at 15 per cent. for a year and at 10 per cent. for four years, there was savage underinvestment in our public services, and unemployment rocketed. Fortunately, under this Government we have the...
Mr Gareth Thomas: What assessment he has made of the adequacy of pension provision in the UK.
