Mr William Ross: The right hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that Conservative Members relied totally on General de Chastelain. It may well be possible to rely on the general's words, but how can we rely on any construction that the Government's spin doctors might put on them?
Mr William Ross: Always.
Mr William Ross: This has been an interesting debate. I have listened to a fair bit of it, just as I have listened to a fair bit of all the debates that have occurred in the past 24 hours. At first, the Minister encouraged me. It is always fatal to be given encourage by a Minister in the early stages of a debate, because he will always say in the end that he cannot help. That said, he recognised the conflict...
Mr William Ross: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr William Ross: Anyone who has read the new clauses will know exactly what they entail. I do not propose to detain the Committee for long, unless others want to take part in the debate. New clause 4 relates to the salary paid to a person elected a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the legislature of Ireland. Such a person would be paid 50 per cent. of the salary of a Member of the Northern Ireland...
Mr William Ross: I am afraid that I cannot agree with the Minister. I think that the place in which to put down the marker is this House. We are dealing with a subordinate legislature, and there is no guarantee that it will apply the principle that I have enunciated and that applies in Europe. I am setting out a general principle that should apply right across the board, which is that Members can draw a...
Mr William Ross: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr William Ross: We are coming to the end of the Bill. We have heard it described as a modest little measure, but those who over the past 23 hours have examined it continuously, line by line—each crossed "t" and dotted "i"—know that, although the Bill seems modest, it has vast implications. We have looked at it carefully. Sadly, the only bluster has been from Ministers, because we have had no answers out...
Mr William Ross: As you will know from your own experience in the House, Sir Alan, there is barely an hon. Member who does not bear on his or her back the deep and vivid marks of the Whips. The same is true in every legislature in the world. Time and again, Whips drive unwilling Members into the Lobby. The Government must have their business, but the duty of Opposition parties must be to oppose the Government...
Mr William Ross: My Whip is sitting beside me too. Although I have served as a Whip, I have always believed that, if one wants to achieve good results and full co-operation, it is better to use kindness and purr like a cat than to use a cat-o'-nine-tails. I believe that a reasoned approach and careful explanation of the merits of the Government's and the party's position will always produce a far greater...
Mr William Ross: That is the very point that I was making at the beginning of my speech. The plain truth is that the Government are duty bound—they are forced by their own admission, made earlier in our debates at about 4 am—to do so. That admission was made at about the same time as Ministers admitted that the Bill is a result of discussions that they had with Sinn Fein-IRA. These things are emblazoned...
Mr William Ross: The reason for the lengthy proceedings is to try and get answers from the Government. The hon. Gentleman bears on his body the marks of his previous occupation, in which he made assiduous efforts to get at the truth. We are merely carrying on the hon. Gentleman's assiduity in that respect.
Mr William Ross: I accept your strictures, Mr. Martin, but I hope that you can tell me whether it is in order for me to respond to an unjustified attack?
Mr William Ross: In that case, I shall certainly try and stay in order.
Mr William Ross: I agree that the hon. Gentleman was slightly wide of the mark with that remark. However, I understand his frustration that, because of the Government's delaying tactics, he has no opportunity to question the Prime Minister.
Mr William Ross: As you say, Mr. Martin, we must get on. The Minister must be tired and may have work to attend to. I do not want to keep him from that. The Government earlier conceded the principle behind these important amendments. They should merely accept the amendments. New clause 8 states: No person elected to the parliament of the United Kingdom and also to the legislature of the Republic of Ireland...
Mr William Ross: That is not the recollection that I had of the Father of the House, whom I have known for a long time.
Mr William Ross: Perhaps the Father of the House was so enthralled with the strong defence that has been made—
Mr William Ross: The problem is that although I try to stick to the amendments, I am constantly interrupted and I have to respond.
Mr William Ross: Does the hon. Gentleman want to—