Mr Norman Fowler: I gather that the point of the hon. Lady's attempted intervention is that the public would not readily recognise the names she sought to quote from HANSARD. "Faceless" carries with it a rather emotive implication and suggests to many people that the cigarette manufacturers are inaccessible, that they are not responsible, and that they cannot be held to account. The word perhaps suggests...
Mr Norman Fowler: I would have thought that the Government had every access to them. I would also have thought that hon. Members would have access to them if they chose to tread the path. I do not want to press this point because I do not believe that anybody could reasonably accept the hon. Lady's emotive charge implicit in her description of these men as "faceless moguls".
Mr Norman Fowler: That is perhaps a point for the hon. Member for Halifax. I cannot make charges against the hon. Lady and at the same time answer for her.
Mr Norman Fowler: I must say that that is the most extraordinary definition of non- entities that I have ever heard. It seems to me that the hon. Lady is using words and is then making up her own definitions of those words. It happens that 99 per cent. of the people who read those words will not come to the same conclusion as she does, which is a pity. However, I do not want to go down this particular by-way...
Mr Norman Fowler: I am grateful for the intervention of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro).
Mr Norman Fowler: I readily accept that correction. He mentions that there will be a third day for debate. I only point out that if I am interrupted much more it is likely that I shall still be speaking on the third day. I have suggested that a voluntary agreement is not ineffective by definition. Therefore, the next point seems to me to be whether it is an agreement which is made between two responsible...
Mr Norman Fowler: No, I am not. I do not think that is a particularly acute point, if I may say so. Even those who have a conspiracy theory of the world should recognise that there is also a practical point about the numbers of cigarette manufacturers in this country with whom one has to have an agreement. There are only three major groups. That again, I would have thought, was a good reason for supporting a...
Mr Norman Fowler: I do not rule out that legislation may be possible in the future, but I am certain that the House would be wise to avoid a long succession of Acts dealing with tobacco smoking. Timing is of the essence. This Bill, and the voluntary agreement, cover one part of the action which may be taken to reduce smoking, but by no stretch of the imagination are they the last word. We do not expect the...
Mr Norman Fowler: I started by supporting the Amendments, but as the morning has progressed I have become more doubtful. I am particularly concerned about the point first raised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) on the advertising material and the way in which it can be caught. I have been approached by constituents who have received the kind of leaflet that has been referred...
Mr Norman Fowler: I do not know the exact extent of the activities of the Julian Press, but, from what has been said this morning, it is clear that the company has no intention of desisting from its policy and seems to have started a new propaganda campaign for its pornography.
Mr Norman Fowler: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have the leaflet that was sent to my constituent, and I imagine it to be the same as that sent to him. Under the guise of trying to help married couples, the leaflet contains words and implication intended to attract a completely different reader. The words that it uses all lead to the conclusion that they are trying to attract not a serious audience but a...
Mr Norman Fowler: My hon. Friend has the advantage of me if he has seen the book to which the leaflet refers. The simple pointing out of the hypocrisy of the advertising will not cause an increase in sales of the book. There is a necessity for the Bill to cover that kind of advertising material. That is where my concern lies.
Mr Norman Fowler: I am grateful for that guidance upon the contents of the book. When the Minister has finished reading it, perhaps I could glance at it as well. But this is a well-known advertising technique. These days one sees advertisements for theatre shows such as "Oh Calcutta", which are far more likely to bore rather than to corrupt. I do not want to make light of this. It is not a matter which should...
Mr Norman Fowler: My hon. Friend intervenes to mention the moors murder. Indeed there were several studies on that murder which came to that conclusion. To those who say that these books can have no effect, I reply that if they read one of these studies which have been carried out, there can be no doubt whatever about the very real and harmful effect such books can have. All this leads me to conclude and to...
Mr Norman Fowler: My hon. Friend has raised a very good point. It is not unknown for mailing lists aimed at this country to be organised from other parts of Europe or even the United States.
Mr Norman Fowler: I do not want to deal with that point on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich, (Mr. Money), but I appreciate what my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) says. I think that it was right of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich to raise this point, because it is at this stage that we may be able to do something about it.
Mr Norman Fowler: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that assurance. I hope that it will be noted. My object in raising these issues in this debate has been to show my concern, which has been increased rather than diminished as the debate has progressed, to see that advertising leaflets which themselves may not describe or illustrate sexual techniques but which advertise books which do just that will be...
Mr Norman Fowler: I suggest that that is more a criticism of the law as it now stands than of the actions of the Director of Public Prosecutions, who interprets the law and decides on the likelihood of a prosecution succeeding. I think that any provision which leads to consistency in our prosecuting policy will be a positive advantage. I do not think that it will result in frivolous and unnecessary...
Mr Norman Fowler: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now make a statement on an increase in salaries for probation officers.
Mr Norman Fowler: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that a strong probation service is a vital factor in the Government's plans to tackle crime? Many probation officers regard this offer as sadly inadequate. In view of the importance of a strong probation service, will my right hon. Friend consider setting up an independent inquiry into the conditions and pay of the probation service?