Councillor Megan Wright, Sally Burlington and Maria Higson gave evidence.

Good afternoon. We shall now hear oral evidence from the Local Government Association, the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, and South East London ICS. We have until 3.50 pm for this panel. Could you identify yourselves for the benefit of the record, please?

Maria Higson:

My name is Maria Higson. I would like to state for the record that I am here to bring to the panel the experience of a director of transformation within the South East London ICS. I do not represent the organisation, but hopefully I bring that experience.

Councillor Wright:

I am Councillor Megan Wright. I am the vice-chair of the Local Government Association health and wellbeing committee.

Sally Burlington:

I am Sally Burlington. I am chief executive of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, which represents directors of adult social care in England.

Q Does removing local authority representation from ICBs weaken the link with local elected representatives, or is it beneficial?

Councillor Wright:

I assume that was directed at me, as I am a representative in local government. We feel it is going to weaken it. Having someone on the ICB is useful to help shape health strategy and ensure that the wider determinants of health are taken into consideration when planning health. We would like to see some kind of structure where local authorities and other partners involved in determining health from a wider perspective have a voice within the NHS delivering health locally.

Q Thank you. Maria, how do you think the Bill and all the changes around ICB funding will affect local services? To what extent does the process in itself cause disruption—or not?

Maria Higson:

Whenever we introduce these changes into the system we have to remember that we are talking about a group of professionals who are trying to deliver for the NHS, citizens and patients. This Bill was first announced back in March 2025. It would be fair to say that since then, for an awful lot of people, there have been organisational and personal unknowns. The best intentions to deliver against the agenda and the three shifts can be hindered by that uncertainty. As with everything, implementation is absolutely critical.

Q Thank you. Sally, what would be the impact of the removal of the pooling of better care funding among local authorities and ICBs?

Sally Burlington:

The better care fund is a really important source of funding for statutory core services. It funds about 80% of social care—in terms of the use of the better care fund by social care, 80% is statutory. While the ability to use it differently could be really valuable, we would be worried about diverting it from those core services into other functions. We have also benefited from the fact that the better care fund is uplifted at the same rate as NHS funding. If we lost that, it would be significant, because social care is systematically less well funded over time compared with some other services.

So you are losing a protection with the Bill.

Sally Burlington:

Exactly.

Q Councillor Wright, the Bill will essentially abolish NHS England. Do you have any comments about how that works at the moment in terms of local government? How can we unlock some of the potential in the Bill, with the changes to NHS England, with regard to local government, particularly on health and wellbeing boards and the entire place agenda?

Councillor Wright:

The main problem the abolition of NHS England has caused is upheaval and uncertainty with our health partners. Many of the health partners at our health and wellbeing board meetings or our place committee meetings are almost saying to us, “I don’t know if I will be here at the next meeting.” Such turmoil in the changeover creates instability from a lack of being able to plan what will happen next. That is one of the challenges that we feel. We are working with our health partners and getting assurances that there will be continuity, but it is quite hard when the person we are working with is changing.

We are really excited about neighbourhood health sitting under health and wellbeing boards. We love the idea of neighbourhood health looking at the wider determinants of health and having a very localised health response to the issues that that community needs to help it. One of our anxieties is that a lot of ICBs have become bigger and have less connection with the place. They are also shrinking; I think NHS England is losing 30%—

Maria Higson:

Larger geography, fewer people!

Councillor Wright:

Exactly. We have had a letter from our ICB giving us the heads-up that they might not be able to guarantee that they can send the right person to our health and wellbeing committees, which will obviously make it difficult to plan neighbourhood health.

The other challenge we find in neighbourhood health is that local authority boundaries might not necessarily match neighbourhood boundaries. I will give an example from Bracknell, where I live. Bracknell is very clearly a neighbourhood, but the south of the borough, which is within the Bracknell Forest council area, probably sits within Bracknell and Wokingham and a little bit within Reading. It will be hard to bring in true neighbourhoods with the current structure, but that is something we are working around, and we are hopeful that we will be able to sort it out.

Q May I come to you, Sally, particularly on social care and the opportunities that might arise from it?

Sally Burlington:

Health and wellbeing boards will probably become even more important following the removal of local government representation from the ICB. It will be the only place we have NHS and local government partners with the specific statutory responsibility to work together on social care. As others have noted, they are at place level and will therefore be crucial for connecting with the neighbourhood.

The other factor that is helpful to note is that there is a huge amount of pressure on systems at the moment, and the cuts to ICBs are having a profound effect on the relationships they have with local government partners. We are hearing from our members that continuing healthcare is a real point of concern, with reviews leading to the withdrawal of that care, placing challenges on local authorities. In that context, making sure that we are supporting health and wellbeing boards to be as effective as possible for neighbourhood health, and in that strategic joining-up role, becomes even more important.

Q Can you say a little more about what those opportunities might be, particularly for social care, with better focus on health and wellbeing boards?

Sally Burlington:

Neighbourhood health is a really important vision that we strongly support. In a way, it is obviously the right thing to do to move services closer to the people they serve and to work very closely with communities. Health and wellbeing boards have an opportunity to drive that neighbourhood health agenda because they are responsible for neighbourhood health planning and have the connection to local government, to the voluntary sector in many cases, and to the NHS. It feels like that is a real space of opportunity to drive neighbourhood health and realise the benefits that it could offer.

Q Ms Higson, you clearly had an interest in the Minister’s last question. Is there anything you would like to say about that?

Maria Higson:

A couple of things. One is that it is not possible to overstate the importance of the partnership working between the NHS and local authorities. If we want neighbourhood health and the shift to prevention more broadly to be successful, working closely with local authorities, including the public health teams—which were not in the question but deserve a mention—is imperative. I am sure we will come to the question about the relationship with the mayoralties. There is something about that geography question. The insight and experience that local authorities bring is really important. That is the one thing that I think ought to be mentioned.

Q I am a vice-president of the LGA, and I am also on the all-party parliamentary patient safety group, just to declare that interest up front. I will use the example of my own local authority, Shropshire, which is a unitary authority. It is extremely financially challenged and operates with an ICB in a similar situation. The hand-off that Sally described between continuing healthcare and provision of social care is really problematic because neither organisation really wants to pay for the care for the people who need it because they do not have the funds. It is a really tense relationship between the two.

I am really concerned that that will become even more problematic because they cannot work together, given that we are not a combined mayoral authority, that we will not have a mayor sitting on our ICB and that our ICB merged footprint does not fit with our local authority geography. How can the health and wellbeing boards work between the two organisations to deliver good social care?

Is that directed at any particular witness?

I am directing it at all three, if that is okay.

Let us start with our councillor in the middle.

Councillor Wright:

It is a challenge. I completely hear that; continuing healthcare is a really difficult one. It is right to say that residents are seen as a financial burden, which should not happen. That is why we need strong health and wellbeing boards. We need strong, honest conversations between local authorities and the NHS for ensuring that good continuity of care.

Obviously, I think the overall aim of the 10-year health plan is to move much more to a model of prevention and treatment in the community, where we hope that we could intervene earlier and set up good standards of care before it gets to a stage where it becomes so adversarial. That is what we are aiming for. We have challenges in our local authority and have had to push back on a few cases where we felt the NHS should be helping those people.

Sally Burlington:

The problem is getting bigger over time. We did some joint work last year with the NHS Confederation to look at those difficult issues on the boundaries between health and social care, including continuing healthcare and mental health aftercare. That identified some good models. We see arrangements for joint commissioning of continuing health care, which can work well. We have seen a little bit of withdrawal from that by some ICBs.

Part of the issue has to be that we are seeing a real intention to cut costs, and that leads to lots of reviews taking place that do withdraw continuing healthcare. We have seen that trend while the demographics are pointing to potentially more demand, not less. I do not think there is a substitute for better relationships. The legal framework is pretty clear. A helpful way into the problem would be to find a way to have a set of conversations at a national level about what the right solution for people is—start there and then think about whether the reviews are right in the ways that they are taking place.

Maria Higson:

The only thing I would add is that it is tricky when we apply a broadbrush approach of, “Well, it’s going to be about the mayoralty and so on.” In reality, certainly within London, we can describe ourselves as a system of systems. We work with six local authorities across one ICB, now partnering with south-west London as well. It is not as easy as “one approach fits all”. As this Bill goes through implementation, it will be important to be conscious of that to get the best out of those relationships.

Q Do you think that the health and wellbeing boards, as envisaged by the Bill, will be the right structure to deliver those relationships, and how do you ensure that they have the right skills?

Councillor Wright:

I chair a health and wellbeing board, and everyone comes to those; there are really good conversations and really good reviews of what is happening. I think they are in a really good position. What I worry about is how much influence they will have over NHS wider strategy.

I was at a King’s Fund day, and someone said something that I thought was so true: the Health Bill and the NHS 10-year plan is the NHS 10-year plan. The NHS will be judged on how it achieves what it is meant to achieve. Although, as local authorities, we want to help with prevention and those wider determinants of health, ultimately the responsibility sits with the NHS.

It is about trying to work out how we have better conversations with the NHS, to say, “We have done neighbourhood health for years; this is what we do as local authorities. We look at all these things and we use public health and our adult social care system to create healthy environments. We need you to be on board with us.” I therefore think there is something about the power dynamics regarding health and wellbeing boards and how we address them. But overall, I feel that they are the best way of ensuring community health.

The other thing is about geographies. Health and wellbeing boards might not match neighbourhood health geographies, so there are also some challenges in working out how that will work.

Q Having been both a local councillor and a Health Minister, I am very conscious that the real test of any joint working arrangements between different bodies comes when budgets start getting a little tighter. We see that tension growing a little bit with the cuts made to ICBs’ budgets.

I was the Minister who created ICBs, and I sat on that Bill Committee with the current Minister for Secondary Care. I am getting a sense of déjà vu—we are on different sides of the Chamber now, but we sat through the Committee stage of the Health and Care Act 2022 together. I deliberately created ICBs to match the geography of upper-tier authorities because health and social care is essentially one system. If one bit does not work, the other bit does not work.

Since then, we have seen significant mergers and larger areas, further removing them from that direct relationship and read-across. Although the good ones do, I fear that a lot of NHS ICBs do not fully reflect the intention behind their creation, which was to see them as a genuinely collaborative exercise with equal voices in the room.

My question is: if we see ever-larger areas or fragmented areas, whether through neighbourhood health plans or mergers and acquisitions among ICBs, how do we maintain genuine local accountability and the relationships that underpin any structure written in law, on a piece of paper or in guidelines?

Notwithstanding what is being done about the health and wellbeing boards’ increasing involvement, do they actually have the teeth they need? In my experience, however good the collaboration, it is within the ICB boardroom that the decisions are actually made. However well things have been discussed beforehand, the ICBs will make their own decisions based on their own priorities. Does the removal of that voice from the ICB strengthen or weaken the ability to see this as one local system and to deliver a genuinely holistic local solution?

Councillor Wright:

It will probably weaken it, unless we are given more say in our local health and wellbeing board. Our Thames Valley ICB has one director of public health. Thames Valley ICB I think has nine local authorities, and one chief executive and one director of public health sit on the board, so already the voice on it is quite small. If we lose that voice, where would we have those conversations? That brings me back to the whole thing about health and wellbeing boards needing to be stronger, definitely.

Sally Burlington:

We would agree with that. If you take away the voice that is able to speak on behalf of social care, public health and wider public services, it will be harder and an additional job to bring in that consideration. It will be even harder to expect there to be notional teeth in that relationship, so we have concerns about that.

Maria Higson:

It is also worth recognising that the delivery of any strategy or plan will require partnership working with local authorities, so whether or not they are in the room, they will be needed for delivery, and the proof is always in the pudding. For me, the partnership is somewhat non-negotiable in order to achieve delivery.

Q Constituents have raised issues with me about when elderly patients or patients with dementia, in particular, come to discharge and the transfer of care, because of the lack of effective data and information sharing. To what extent do the provisions in the Bill on the single patient record allow data to be shared with social care providers? I will ask Councillor Wright to start off.

Councillor Wright:

At the LGA, we are arguing for a single person record, so that we have a single patient record that brings in social care providers, or at least the local authorities’ social care statutory provision, too. Someone discharged into the community would therefore still have access to records and know what was going on, while others would know what has happened to that person and what they need. Yes, we agree: we hope that a single patient record would make things as smooth as possible from hospital discharge to home and would help when someone comes into hospital, so that the clinicians have a better idea of what the patient’s quality of life was like, what treatments they were on, and so on. We are definitely in support of the single patient record for that, and we would like it to become a single person record.

Sally Burlington:

We are supportive as well. The Bill itself is unlikely to solve all the problems in this space. A huge number of practical cultural system problems exist in data sharing, so the regulations that follow the Bill will be important to enable that to work for social care providers and commissioners. It is worth noting that there are thousands of social care providers, so the implementation of the Bill and subsequent regulations will be important. We are keen to ensure that any approaches are co-produced with the social care sector, as well as the NHS. It will be a lot of thinking, a lot of planning and a lot of hard work to get it right, and social care providers will need lots of notice to upgrade their systems in the right, consistent way to enable them to speak to each other, if we are to see the vision of the single person record delivered. I guess it would also be helpful to think about the role of carers as we move into that space, because we know from covid that data sharing among carers was one of the issues that came up.

Q Ms Higson, given that you are a director of transformation, and that this is, in a wider sense, a transformation of the NHS, if you had the money, resources and political capital that the current Government have, would you do this or would you do something else?

Maria Higson:

Any time we go through an NHS reorganisation, it is distracting—that is the reality of such situations. It is unfortunate that, over the past 15 months, this has been a large distraction for people who are genuinely trying to deliver the three shifts—prevention, digital and neighbourhoods. It is true that it has been a distraction. I am not sure that this Committee is the right space to go into these, as I am aware that we are here to discuss the Bill, but there are probably opportunities to go further on some elements, which may help us in future.

Q Can you give a couple of examples?

Maria Higson:

To take one example, I would love to see an NHS where we step away from short-term activity metrics, and towards outcomes—that is mentioned in the Bill. The constant firefight on activities is quite challenging, so how can we move that dialogue to ensure genuine transformation? That is an example of where we could potentially go further than the Bill suggests, but I am conscious that I am supposed to comment on the Bill, not give my own random thoughts.

One of the concerns of my local healthcare trust is around the release of elderly patients into the community, as it finds that relations with the ICB are sometimes difficult. How can neighbourhood health plans work well and cohesively with healthcare trusts to release patients into community care?Q

I could not hear the question from this end of the room; I do not know if our witnesses could.

I was talking about bed-blocking in hospitals and how neighbourhood health plans can work more cohesively with hospital trusts.

Councillor Wright:

I think we can answer this together. The whole point of neighbourhood health is to bring in everyone in the voluntary sector, your patient transport and all that, so that your joint strategic needs assessment has a good understanding of what is available to someone in the community when they come home. We talked before about having a strong single patient record so that good communication is there, and neighbourhood health is able to strengthen that. Neighbourhood health should be not just about shifting the need from hospital to community, but about reducing that need in the first place so that fewer people need to go to hospital. At the same time, we are seeing some good developments in the NHS, such as frailty teams and hospital at home teams, all of which help to prevent people from being admitted to hospital in the first place, and to ensure that when people come home, there is a team to visit them.

You are right about the communication issue, although it has not been an issue where I am, as we have very good communication with our local ICB about the people being discharged, to make sure that someone is there to meet them and that nurses come out to see them when they come home—I cannot remember the word for that. We have the right systems in place and they are working. I do not know how neighbourhood health will work everywhere, but in our borough we have a step-down unit called Heathlands, which people quite often go to when they come out of hospital and which does quite a lot of rehabilitation. That already starts the plan to get them home: to go from hospital, to the step-down place and then to home. It is about having good systems in place, all of which should hopefully be supported by neighbourhood health, which should have a good knowledge of what is available locally.

Sally Burlington:

It should definitely help, if it works well; we should see more capability and capacity available in the community, closer to where people live, to help them when they come out of hospital. There is a lot of good practice and understanding about good discharge and how you plan from the point that somebody is admitted to when they come out of hospital. The emphasis on integrated neighbourhood teams will be important. It would be helpful if we could all remember that those must include social care and wider local government services and connections in to those, not just integration within NHS teams. It is definitely a positive step forward and, if we can try to make sure that the relationships between health, social care, public health and wider services are brought to life in neighbourhood health, that will help us in this way and in lots of others.

SallyQ , you have said a bit on this already, but could you say a bit more about how the single patient record could change and improve day-to-day experiences of the health and social care system, and the safeguards that you might be concerned about?

Sally Burlington:

As I understand it, the safeguards around data sharing remain in place under the Bill—they do not change. The part of the single patient record that is really attractive to our world is that people will not have to repeat themselves to every professional they meet; they will not have to tell their story again and again or be retraumatised by explaining the detail of what they have been through.

The potential advantages are there, but there are obviously concerns about data protection and how data is used. It is incumbent on us all to take those seriously, think them through and make sure that safeguards are appropriately implemented locally and in all the institutions that have access. That is probably a matter less for the Bill and more for the implementation and supporting regulations, but we and other partners will be keen to be a part of that process to make sure that the safeguards are appropriate.

Q I come from a county with really significant health inequalities—people in the wealthy parts of the county live 10 or 12 years longer than people in some of the more deprived parts of Aylesbury, which I represent. I would love to hear your thoughts on how we ensure that local authorities, ICBs and the voluntary sector continue working well together through this, and specifically how we do that in a way that drives the reduction we need in health inequalities.

Maria Higson:

I think we are all agreed that working at the neighbourhood level is absolutely the right way to go about that. That is where health inequalities can best be addressed, because that can be most nuanced and tailored. Working on that smaller footprint is really important. You mentioned voluntary, community and social enterprise organisations, and I think that is a hugely important part that has broadly been missed out from the conversation around these changes. We work closely with VCSE partners and we know they deliver huge amounts for the communities and understand the communities in which they are embedded very well, so making sure that the VCSE voice is part of those neighbourhood teams will be important for that nuance and tailoring in the local element.

Councillor Wright:

I agree entirely. Local authorities are in a good position to engage the voluntary and community sector. But again, we are fighting for a voice with the NHS and they are fighting for a voice with us, so we need some honest conversations with ICBs, and a real strategy looking at those health inequalities and what is driving them. It will not purely be access to hospitals; it will also be access to meaningful employment, housing, transport, mental health or social isolation—there will be so much driving those wider determinants of health that are affecting healthy life expectancy. Local authorities are in a prime position to do that, and they need to be listened to. I think the challenge will be how we collectively say, “What needs to be done, other than implementing the Bill? How do we look at the whole health inequality picture and address it?”

Sally Burlington:

I would agree with the others: tackling health inequalities is really difficult. Doing it the same way in every area would not work, particularly in a world where there is not enough resource to do everything we would all like to do. You have to tailor how you approach local service delivery and what is needed locally according to local needs, the local community capability, how people work and what their preferences are locally, and the neighbourhood health agenda is our best shot at tailoring in that way.

I think you will come on to Healthwatch, but we would have concerns that, in separating the Healthwatch duties to look at NHS and social care, we risk missing some of those who are most likely to need both, and that that could exacerbate health inequalities rather than make them better.

Which organisations or people do you envisage running the neighbourhood health centres? Will they be run out of general practice organisations, or will the local authorities themselves be best placed to run them, so as to join up hospital care with community servicesQ ?

Councillor Wright:

That is quite interesting; I was at a session this morning looking at communities, and there was a comment that for the NHS communities are about buildings, whereas for the local authority they are about people. I think it would be the ICBs and whoever they commissioned to provide neighbourhood health centres. I hope there would be enough input from the voluntary sector, the local authority, adult social care and public health—from everyone—but I see the ICBs as the commissioners and the people who organise them.

Q So the ICB will commission it, but somebody will have to run it. Who should run a neighbourhood health centre?

Maria Higson:

If we want to be as open to change as possible, my argument would be that that should be decided locally. Would it not be fantastic if, for example, some of them were led by VCSEs that worked in close partnerships and had clinics where GPs came in? You can envisage a whole number of different scenarios, led by local communities and local organisations. This plays back to the health inequalities point, but that is how you do it, although it relies on you being open to different models and not trying to do a one-size-fits-all, which is really tricky when you are trying to implement.

Last word, Sally Burlington.

Sally Burlington:

I strongly agree with that. If you were asking who is best placed to run them, the answer would be that it probably looks different everywhere, because it will rely on local leadership and local capability and capacity, which varies across all our sectors, so this is a really good opportunity to make the most of that leadership ambition and skills and capacity locally.

Thank you, ladies. The Committee is most grateful to you.

I will just explain now, while we are changing over witness panels, that after I introduce the next panel there are likely to be—in fairly short order, because the Minister is on his feet—four Divisions in the House. I shall suspend the Committee from as soon as the first Division is called until 10 minutes after the start of the last Division, when we will start again. I hope that is clear. It does mean, I am afraid, that we will have to ask our witnesses to be very patient. It is extremely tedious and very discourteous, but that is the way this place operates, I am afraid.