Dr Rosie Benneyworth gave evidence.

We will now hear oral evidence from the Health Services Safety Investigations Body. Again, we must stick to the timings, but we are doing rather well at the moment—let us hope we can stick to that. Would you be kind enough to identify yourself for the benefit of the record?

Dr Benneyworth:

Good morning, everyone. My name is Rosie Benneyworth and I am the interim chief executive of the Health Services Safety Investigations Body.

Q Good morning, Dr Benneyworth. There seems to have been a bit of a muddle in how some of this has been expressed this morning. For clarity, could you explain how a regulator is different from an investigatory body, please?

Dr Benneyworth:

We are a safety investigator. We have been modelled on other industries that have very successful safety records, and we have learned from those other industries. We investigate patient safety concerns of national significance, and we make recommendations into national bodies about what needs to be improved. We make very few recommendations—only small numbers—into those national bodies, but they are about what needs to change from a systemic point of view to make patient care better. That is underpinned by learning from other industries—the safety science, the human factors and the real knowledge about how you improve safety—and we are trying to embed that in the NHS.

Regulation is very different. That looks at individual providers. I used to the work for the CQC and regulate primary care. It looks at how individual providers are functioning. It makes recommendations to individual providers about what needs to change, and it judges an individual’s performance against a set of regulations. The two functions are completely different.

The other important thing for us is that we do not attribute any blame or liability in our investigations. That is vital, because we learn from what we see. We learn from those investigations, and we are trying to embed a continuous learning environment and culture within the system.

Q Earlier on it was asked what would happen if the HSSIB was rolled into the CQC, yet the problem with the healthcare was a failure of the CQC to properly regulate or investigate. I was a little bit lost for words at that point. How would that work in practice? Or would it not?

Dr Benneyworth:

I think it will be very difficult. At the moment, we have the ability, being an independent organisation, to investigate any part of the system where there is a concern. That includes the national system. In several of our investigations we have looked at how the national system, the regulatory system and NHS England are working, and how other parts of the system are working. We are unique in that, because a lot of those bodies do not get the scrutiny from any other part of the system, and they do not get that oversight and ability to look and understand how the national system works together.

If we were a directorate in the CQC, as outlined in the legislation, it would be very difficult for us to comment on how the CQC was looking at different areas and how it was managing certain aspects of safety. I think there is also concern about our ability to make effective recommendations to the CQC if we are a directorate within it.

Q Another question that has been raised about independence is the choice of what to investigate. The Secretary of State can direct, but the impact assessment suggests that the Government intend to direct the vast Majority of investigations. Is it currently the case, or has it been the case in the past, that the vast majority has been directed by the Secretary of State, or has that been unusual?

Dr Benneyworth:

That would be unusual. We have undertaken one very detailed set of investigations into mental health in-patients, which was directed by a previous Secretary of State. We would very much want to hear the patient safety concerns of the Secretary of State to understand what we investigate. We work extensively with stakeholders across the system. We want to be a constructive part of the system. We want to investigate the areas that people are concerned about. We work extensively with all stakeholders to hear their patient safety concerns and make sure that our investigations are informed by that knowledge and by what we are hearing from patients and families, as well as staff working in the system.

However, we need to make sure that we have the independence to investigate what we are hearing about. It is very important that we are not stopped investigating something, and it would be concerning if someone told us not to investigate something. We need to maintain that independence.

Q Earlier in this session we heard concerns that you keep some information secret. You have the safe space legislation in place. Does that improve or weaken safety?

Dr Benneyworth:

There is no doubt that it helps to improve safety. That is something we have learned from 100 years of the air accidents investigation branch, which has had an immense impact on aviation safety, the rail accident investigation branch, and many others. Safe space, or protected disclosures, means that people can talk freely to us about things that have gone wrong without fear of sanctions, being told off by their line manager or losing their jobs.

We hear all the time about people who have ended up losing their jobs or getting into trouble because they have raised concerns. We see in our investigations that we are still working in a culture of fear. In an ideal world, that would not be the case and people would feel able to speak up openly about what has gone wrong, but we are working in a culture where people are not in that place.

This enables staff working in the service and patients to talk to us freely about what they see on a daily basis that they think needs to change. Patients sometimes worry that they will be treated differently and not get the same care after they raise things. This enables patients to talk to us in the knowledge that they will not be named. The patients we work with who have been harmed from healthcare tell us, “We don’t want this happening to other families. We’ve been through this awful, terrible time, and we want to change the system.” This enables them to talk to us.

We do not name individuals in our reports and do not name organisations. We are now in a stage where we are growing that trust. We are coming up to being three years old as an organisation, and we are growing that trust with the system. When we launch an investigation, organisations right across the country say, “Please come and see what’s happening here. Please come and talk to us.” I worry that that might be impacted by the changes ahead.

Q What are the key things we need to get right to ensure that safety investigations in general and safe space in particular are made to happen in the new arrangements?

Dr Benneyworth:

The two key things have been touched on already. The first is the independence to choose what we investigate and make recommendations to any part of the system. The second area is around protected disclosure. The legislation needs to be much clearer around the protection of protected disclosure materials, to give the system confidence in our ability to hold and not share confidential information.

At the moment, the legislation talks about connected individuals having access to the protected materials. The clauses outlining connected individuals mean that anyone working in the CQC could potentially have access to protected materials. That is a very large number of people, and it will create risk. There needs to be a legal duty on the CQC to protect the safe space. There is also something about maintaining an identity that gives people confidence that when they are talking to us, their information will not automatically go into the CQC regulatory functions.

Some of that may be about perception rather than the reality of what is happening, but as we know, perception is very important. People will perceive that we are part of the regulatory system even if we have the same email address, for example.

Q Those things obviously are manageable in another system, but people need that safe space to come forward. You rightly outlined reality and perception, and perception is often important for confidence.

You talked about the culture of fear, which I think we have recognised over time. We are all Constituency MPs, so we recognise that. Can you say something about the opportunities for learning that could arise from working with the CQC, which is in that regulatory space?

Dr Benneyworth:

We already work very closely with the CQC. In fact, we meet with them on a very regular basis. They share their learning and concerns with us already. Some of our investigations have come from the learning that they have seen on inspection, so we have a very good relationship with the CQC.

There are significant opportunities for the whole patient safety landscape. We are a tiny part of the patient safety landscape. We need to all work much more collaboratively right across the regulatory space—ourselves, the investigatory bodies and the wider system. The National Quality Board will have a significant role to play in that to share learning and identify key patient safety risks. That is already happening in our work with the CQC. This legislation will not significantly change that.

Q I re-declare that I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group on patient safety. We have heard this morning about a tension between needing to be able to report when something has gone wrong that HSSIB has become aware of to ensure that it is dealt with—the example given by Dr Dash earlier was a maternity failing—and the importance of a safe space, so that people can report to HSSIB when something has gone wrong and then HSSIB can make the appropriate recommendations to change the problem within the system that has led to that issue. Can you talk a bit more about that tension? What is the best way to manage that?

Dr Benneyworth:

First, we do not replace local investigations. If something goes wrong, the local teams are very much responsible for investigating their work. Dr Dash talked about the new processes around PSIRF and the new investigation processes, which we fully support. In fact, our education team have had 40,000 people enrolled over the last three years, free of charge in the NHS, to support them in developing those investigation skills, really supporting that excellence in local investigation. We have a long way to go there, because they are variable in quality.

We do not replace that immediate, “There has been an incident and it needs investigation.” We know that, quite often, the things that need to change are not sitting within one provider. We know that the same things are happening in Cornwall and Cumbria and everywhere in between, and that they often need national solutions to change.

As a recent example, we published a report a few weeks ago looking at the care of people in mental health crisis in emergency departments. That showed that the legislation around the care of mental health patients is not supporting people in emergency departments to look after these people properly. That is not something that can be changed by a regulator. The CQC going to look at that emergency department will not impact that. It is not something that the individual provider can change, but we can make national recommendations about it to change the national system to enable people on the ground working in health and care to do their job properly. We can make sure that the systems and processes really consider how things work, and really change them so that providers and systems locally can do their job.

Q What could be changed in this legislation to ensure that HSSIB can retain trust and independence from the regulatory body?

Dr Benneyworth:

There needs to be much more clarity about governance and how that will work in the legislation to protect independence. There are potential compromises that could happen, such as a Healthwatch-style model that has its own independent leadership within the CQC, its own governance arrangements and, importantly, its own identity. That would enable it to keep its independence, while being part of a larger organisation. In the legislation, it is vital that there is a legal duty for the CQC to protect safe space.

Q I feel that my question may have just been answered, but you may wish to add something, Dr Benneyworth. Will patient safety accountability be improved when a patient’s care spans different organisations within an ICB?

Dr Benneyworth:

One of the things that we see regularly in our investigations is that people fall down the gaps between organisations. We have the ability to look right across the system and understand a person’s journey. As a recent example, we looked at medication errors on discharge from hospital. There are a lot of medication errors, and we looked at the process of how information was being shared and what was happening. Those are the type of things where we see a lot of concerns about patient safety. There needs to be much more clarity about accountability for patient safety.

No one is accountable for the discharge of a patient. There is not one person—no single individual—who is accountable when someone is discharged from hospital to social care. You go through multiple layers of accountability. We are keen to learn from other industries that have effective safety management systems. Part of those safety management systems is having much more clarity about accountability, which is lacking across the NHS. I very much hope that, with the changes to ICBs, they really do think about accountability for patient safety.

In her evidence earlier, Dr Dash said that one of the reasons for her recommendations in her second review of changes to the regulatory and investigatory landscape is that it is a problem for the provider landscape that there are so many different organisations making so many recommendations. You have just said that HSSIB makes very few recommendations. Will the merging or folding—however you wish to characterise it—of HSSIB into the CQC lead to any meaningful reduction in the number of recommendations that organisations have to cope with?Q

Dr Benneyworth:

No, we do not make recommendations to provider organisations at all. All our recommendations go to national organisations. I completely agree with Dr Dash that there are too many recommendations. In fact, HSSIB raised that concern through our work two years ago and flagged it to Dr Dash. We wrote a report called “Recommendations but no action”. We are very concerned about the plethora of recommendations going to providers, which create a huge amount of noise but, distressingly for the families involved, do not lead to the changes needed.

I completely agree that there are far too many recommendations. I am leading some work to address that—we are setting up a recommendations hub with the Department of Health and Social Care—but we are not that problem. We have made 39 recommendations since investigations launched and HSSIB started three years ago, and they are all to national bodies. We might reduce the burden on national bodies by taking that away, but it will not have any impact on providers.

Dr Benneyworth, you mentioned protected disclosures, and you said that individuals or organisations may have a fear of reprisals. Would you like to say anything more on that? What would you like to see from the CQC or in the Bill?Q

Dr Benneyworth:

Yes, absolutely—we have seen that in so many of our investigations. It can often be exacerbated by different parts of the system working together.

To give you an example, we looked at mental health in-patient settings. There is national guidance that says that people should not use risk assessment tools around self-harm, but when we looked we found that, on the ground, everyone was using these tools. We asked why that was, and we were given two reasons. One was that the IT systems were set up such that you could not move past the front screen without ticking one of the risk assessment boxes, and the other reason was that people were fearful about being in front of a coroner and asked about risk assessment tools, so we took action on both those fronts.

Another thing that we see is about speaking up. There are definite inequalities at play when people are speaking up. We have seen significant racial discrimination. We wrote a report about temporary workers. We find that people working as locums or agency staff often feel a lot less able to speak up if there are patient concerns. If you are black or from other global Majority groups, to be able to speak up is even harder. On the back of that, we made a recommendation to the National Guardian’s Office, and it has done a lot of work with temporary workers, looking at how we can improve their ability to speak up. We still have a huge way to go on culture generally, but particularly on discrimination and the inequalities that we see in every one of our investigations.

Q I reiterate that I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group on patient safety. Dr Benneyworth and I have had many conversations about this issue.

I have two questions. The first is about the safe space. We have seen written evidence, and we have heard when others have attended the Health and Social Care Committee, about the fact that if HSSIB is placed inside the CQC, you could have the farcical situation of one set of CQC lawyers, who are representing HSSIB, suing or attempting to sue another set of CQC lawyers, who are looking out for the CQC situation, because they are trying to get information out of part of their own system. Is that parody or is it a possibility and real problem?

Dr Benneyworth:

It is a problem and something that potentially could happen. I hope that we would work effectively to try to avoid that. Essentially, and just to reassure the Committee, if we see something of a criminal nature, if there are significant regulatory concerns, we have protocols in place to be able to escalate that. But there is a real risk that potentially, if we held information that the CQC needed in part of its regulatory function, in its enforcement function, we would not be able to share that, because of our legislation, and we would not want to share it, because we want to maintain the trust in the system. It would need to go to the High Court to be able to get hold of it.

Q Just so that I am clear, you have internal protocols that would raise stuff if you saw something criminal, and if you were investigating something and potentially could not share the information, that would not prevent any of the multitude of other regulators that we have out there from investigating on their own something similar. Your investigation would not preclude them from being able to investigate as well.

Dr Benneyworth:

No.

Q Dr Dash, in her evidence, said that—I am slightly paraphrasing, so I hope I have not got this wrong—NHS England has a number of investigatory bodies that it has established recently, and that although they were not perfect, they were much better, and they could be doing this job. What is your response to that?

Dr Benneyworth:

NHS England has an investigations unit that commissions regional and national investigations, sometimes from private organisations. We work very closely with the NHS England patient safety team. As I said, we have supported their work in rolling out local investigations around the patient safety incident response framework. We have been instrumental in supporting the training and education around that. We are the only safety investigator with protected disclosure. There is no other body that is like us and can do the same type of investigations in this country, and we are internationally looked at. In fact, I am doing a podcast with Canada tomorrow. Numerous countries are looking at us and saying, “We want the same thing.” There is a handful of investigators like us in Finland and Norway, and they have excellent safety outcomes for their patients, but the rest of the world is looking at us and trying to learn from us, and I am frequently asked to speak internationally about this.

Q You are saying that you are a world leader.

Dr Benneyworth:

We are—

Very quickly.

I think the answer was, “We are.”

I am afraid we have come to the end of the session. I am sorry and I apologise to colleagues whom I did not manage to accommodate this time. Thank you very much for joining us, Dr Benneyworth. That was most helpful.