Detective Chief Superintendent Andrew Gould gave evidence.

We will now hear oral evidence from Detective Chief Superintendent Andrew Gould, programme lead for the National Police Chiefs’ Council cyber-crime programme. For this session, we have until 3.40 pm. I call Dr Ben Spencer.

Q Thank you very much for coming in to give us evidence this afternoon, and thank you for your service. I have two questions. Who are the main threat actors in cyber-attacks on UK networks and information systems—what do they break down into, in terms of state actors, affiliates and criminal gangs?

Secondly, on ransomware attacks, you will know that the Government review states that ransomware is

“the greatest of all serious and organised cybercrime threats”.

In your view, what is the scale of that threat and what sectors and businesses are the primary targets?

DCS Andrew Gould:

To take the actors first, they are probably quite well known, in terms of the general groupings. Yes, we have our state actors—the traditional adversaries that we regularly talk about—and they generally offer very much a higher-end capability, as you will all be aware.

The next biggest threat group is organised crime groups. You see a real diversity of capability within that. You will see some that are highly capable, often from foreign jurisdictions—Russian jurisdictions or Russian-speaking. The malware developers are often the more sophisticated as service-type offerings. We see more and more ransomware and other crime types almost operating as franchises—“Here is the capability, off you go, give us a cut.” Then they have less control over how those capabilities are used, so we are seeing a real diversification of the threat, particularly when it comes to ransomware.

Then, where you have that proximity to state-directed, if not quite state-controlled—that crossover between some of those high-end crime groups and the state; I am thinking primarily of Russia—it is a lot harder to attribute the intent behind an attack. There is a blurring of who was it and for what purpose was it done, and there is that element of deniability because it is that one further step away.

Moving back down the levels of the organised crime groups, you have a real profusion of less capable actors within that space, from all around the world, driving huge volumes, often using quite sophisticated tools but not really understanding how they work.

What we have seen is almost like a fragmentation in the criminal marketplace. The barrier to criminal entry is probably lower than it has ever been. You can download these capabilities quite readily—you can watch a tutorial on YouTube or anywhere else on how to use them, and off you go, even if you do not necessarily understand the impact. We certainly saw a real shift post pandemic from traditional criminals and crime groups into more online crime, because it was easier and less risky.

You look more broadly at hacktivists, terrorists—who are probably a lot less capable; they might have the intent but not so much the capability—and then the group that are sometimes slightly patronisingly described as script kiddies. These are young individuals with a real interest in developing their skills. They have an understanding that what they are doing is wrong, but they are probably not financially or criminally motivated. If they were not engaging in that kind of cyber-crime, they probably would not be engaging in other forms of criminality, but they can still do a lot of damage with the tools they can get their hands on, given that so many organisations seem to struggle to deliver even a basic level of cyber-resilience and cyber-security.

One of the things that we really noticed changing over the last 18 months is the diversification of UK threats. Your traditional UK cyber-criminal, if there is such a thing, is primarily focused on hacking for personal benefit, ransomware and other activity. Now we are seeing a diversification, and more of a hybrid, cross-organised crime threat. There are often two factors to that. We often hear it described in the media or by us within law enforcement publicly as the common threat—this emerging community online—otherwise known as Scattered Spider.

There, we are seeing two elements to those sorts of groups. You see an element of maybe more traditional cyber-skills engaged in hacking or using those skills for fraud, but we also see those skills being used for Computer Misuse Act offences, in order to enable other offences. One of the big areas for that at the moment that we see is around intimate image abuse. We see more and more UK-based criminals hacking individuals’ devices to access, they hope, intimate images. They then identify the subject of those intimate images, most predominantly women, and then engage in acts of extortion, bullying or harassment. We have seen some instances of real-world contact away from that online contact.

Think of the scale of that and the challenge that presents to policing. I can think of cases in cyber-crime unit investigations across the country where you have got a handful of individuals who have victimised thousands of women in the UK and abroad. You have got these small cyber-crime units of a handful of people trying to manage 4,000 or 10,000 victims.

It is very difficult and very challenging, but the flipside of that is that, if they are UK-based, we have a much better chance of getting hold of them, so we are seeing a lot more arrests for those cross-hybrid threats, which is a positive. There is definitely an emerging cohort that then starts to blend in with threats like Southport and violence-fixated individuals. There seems to be a real mishmash of online threat coming together and then separating apart in a way that we have never seen historically. That is a real change in the UK threat that is driving a lot of policing activity.

Turning to your ransomware question, what is interesting, in terms of the kinds of organisations that are impacted by ransomware, a lot of the ransomware actors do not want to come to notice for hitting critical national infrastructure. They do not want to do the cloning of pipelines. They do not want to be taking out hospitals and the NHS. They know they will not get paid if they hit UK critical national infrastructure, for starters, so there is a disincentive, but they also do not want that level of Government or law enforcement attention.

Think of the disruptive effect that the UK NCA and policing had on LockBit the year before last. LockBit went from being the No. 1 ransomware strain globally to being out of the top 10 and struggling to come back. We saw a real fragmentation of the ransomware market post that. There is no dominant strain or group within that that has emerged to cover that. A lot of those groups that are coming into that space may be a bit less skilled, sophisticated and successful.

The overall threat to organisations is pretty much the same. The volume is the volume, but it is probably less CNI and more smaller organisations because they are more vulnerable and it is less likely to play out very publicly than if there is a big impact on the economy or critical national infrastructure. As such, there is probably not the level of impact in the areas that people would expect, notwithstanding some of the really high-profile incidents we had last year.

Q Thank you for joining us. You mentioned frauds. It is a fact that criminals across the world are targeting British citizens every day. In Dyfed-Powys, over £500,000 was lost to online fraud in 2023-24, and elderly victims are losing £7,900 a day to fraud. Clearly, these attacks are coming from all over the world. Interpol recently arrested over 800 members of a global criminal network based in Nigeria. From your perspective, how effectively are UK police forces currently able to work with international partners to investigate and prosecute overseas criminals? What additional support from the Government would most improve your ability to mitigate online fraud from overseas?

DCS Andrew Gould:

That is a really good question. The international jurisdiction challenge for us is huge. We know that is where most of the volumes are driven from, and obviously we do not have the powers to just go over and get hold of the people we would necessarily want to. You will not be surprised to hear that it really varies between jurisdictions. Some are a lot more keen to address some of the threats emanating from their countries than others. More countries are starting to treat this as more of a priority, but it can take years to investigate an organised crime group or a network, and it takes them seconds to commit the crime. It is a huge challenge.

There are two things that we could do more of better—these are things that are in train already. If you think about the wealth of cyber-crime, online fraud and so on, all the data, and a lot of the skills and expertise to tackle that sit within the private sector, whereas in law enforcement, we have the law enforcement powers to take action to address some of it.

With a recent pilot in the City funded by the Home Office, we have started to move beyond our traditional private sector partnerships. We are working with key existing partners—blockchain analytic companies or open-source intelligence companies—and we are effectively in an openly commercial relationship; we are paying them to undertake operational activity on our behalf. We are saying, “Company a, b or c, we want you to identify UK-based cyber-criminals, online fraudsters, money-laundering and opportunities for crypto-seizure under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002”. They have the global datasets and the bigger picture; we have only a small piece of the puzzle. By working with them jointly on operations, they might bring a number of targets for us, and we can then develop that into operational activity using some of the other tools and techniques that we have.

It is quite early days with that pilot, but the first investigation we did down in the south-east resulted in a seizure of about £40 million-worth of cryptocurrency. That is off a commercial contract that cost us a couple of hundred grand. There is potential for return on investment and impact as we scale it up. It is a capability that you can point at any area of online threat, not just cyber-crime and fraud, so there are some huge opportunities for it to really start to impact at scale.

One of the other things we do in a much more automated and technical way—again funded by the Home Office—is the replacement of the Action Fraud system with the new Report Fraud system. That will, over the next year or so, start to ingest a lot of private sector datasets from financial institutions, open-source intelligence companies and the like, so we will have a much broader understanding of all those threats and we will also be able to engage in takedowns and disruptions in an automated way at scale, working with a lot of the communication service providers, banks and others.

Instead of the traditional manual way we have always been doing a lot of that protection, we can, through partnerships, start doing it in a much more automated and effective way at scale. Over time, we will be able to design out and remove a lot of the volume you see impacting the UK public now. That is certainly the plan.

Q One of the things that we have heard over the course of the day is that the Bill is just one of a range of different ways in which public authorities engage with companies on cyber-security and resilience. I am interested in hearing about the impact the Police CyberAlarm programme has had on the cyber-security and resilience of organisations. What would you like to see going forward?

DCS Andrew Gould:

I love the fact that you have heard of it. One of the things that we struggle with is promoting a lot of these initiatives. Successive Governments actually deserve a lot of credit for the range of services that are provided. We aspire to be a global cyber-power, and in many ways we are. When you look at the range of services, tools, advice and guidance that organisations or the public can get, there is quite a positive story to tell there. I think we struggle to bring that into one single narrative and promote it, which is a real challenge. People just do not know that those services are there.

For those who are not familiar with Police CyberAlarm, it is a Home Office-funded policing tool focused on small and medium-sized organisations that probably do not have the skills or understanding to protect themselves as effectively. They can download that piece of software, and it will sit on their external networks and monitor for attacks. For the first time, it helps us in policing to build a domestic threat picture for small and medium-sized organisations, because everybody has a different piece of the puzzle. GCHQ has great insight into what is coming into the UK infrastructure, but it obviously cannot monitor domestically. Big organisations that provide cyber-security services and monitoring know what is impacting their clients or their organisation, but not everybody else. At policing, we get what is reported, which is a tiny piece of the puzzle. So everyone has a different bit of the jigsaw, and none of it fits together, and, even if it did, there would still be gaps. For SMEs, that is a particular gap.

For us, we get the threat intelligence to drive our operational activity, which has been quite successful for us. The benefit for member organisations—we are up to about 12,000 organisations at the moment, which are mostly schools, because we know that they are the most vulnerable to attack for a variety of reasons—is that, having the free tool available, it can do the monthly vulnerability scans and assessments. So they are getting a report from the police that tells them what they need to fix and what they need to patch.

We do not publicly offer a lifetime monitoring service, because we would not want the liability and responsibility, and we do not have the infrastructure to run that scale of security operation centre. But, in effect, that is actually what we have been doing for a long time—maybe not 24/7, but most of the time—because we have been able to identify precursor activity to ransomware attacks on schools or other organisations, and have been able to step in and prevent it from happening. There have been instances where officers have literally got in cars and gone on a blue light to organisations to say, “You need to shut some stuff off now, because you are about to lose control of your whole organisation.”

To that extent, it has been really impactful, but the challenge for us is how to scale. How do you scale so that people understand that it is there? How do you make it easier for organisations to install? That is one of the things that we are working on at the moment, so that everybody can benefit from the scans and the threat reporting, and we can benefit from a bigger understanding of what is going on.

The flip side of the SME offer from our point of view is our cyber-resilience centres. By working with some of the top student talent in the country, we can scale to offer our member organisations across the country the latest advice and guidance, help them understand what the NCSC advice and guidance is, and then help them to get the right level of security policies, patch their systems and all that kind of thing. It helps them to take the first steps on their cyber-resilience journey, and hopefully be more mature consumers of cyber-security industry services going forward. We are helping to create a market for growth, but also helping those organisations to understand their specific vulnerabilities and improve from a very base level.

Q With regard to ransom payments and extortion attempts, what do you typically see? Is it for monetary gain or intellectual property data—what is the split?

DCS Andrew Gould:

That is another really good question. Generally, it is financial, but you will often get what is called the double dip, so there is the extraction of data as well as the encryption of it, so that you no longer have access to it. They might take that data as well, primarily personal data, because of the regulatory pressures and challenges that that brings. There is a sense among a lot of criminal groups that, if they have personal data, you are more likely to pay, because you do not want that reputation, embarrassment and all the rest of it, as opposed to if they take intellectual property, for example. But it is not that that does not happen as well. Primarily, it is financial gain.

Q Part of my concern is the pace of change in the technology that hackers are using, and I am sure that is a concern for you as well. One of the conversations about the Bill is about how flexible or inflexible it should be. What is your view on the changing pace of the threat we face from criminality when it comes to cyber-attacks, and on how the Bill can best be framed to deal with that ever-changing challenge and threat?

DCS Andrew Gould:

It is a tricky one. It feels like the technology change is getting ever faster and ever more challenging, but I first went into cyber-crime in the Met back in 2014, and we are giving the same advice now as we were giving then. Sometimes your head can explode with the technical complexity of it, but a lot of the solution just comes down to doing the really boring basics in a world-class way. It is things like patching and doing your software updates. Whether you are a member of the public or running an organisation, finding a way to do those updates and patches means that 50% of the threat has gone, there and then. With something like multi-factor authentication, it seems like most organisations do not want to inconvenience their staff or customers by putting it in place, but that would be another 40% of the problem solved. It is not infallible—nothing is—but if you are thinking about how attacks are still successful, it is pretty basic: a lot of our protections are not in place. Solving that means that 90% of the threat is gone, there and then. That then leaves the 10% of more sophisticated threats—let’s make the criminals work a bit harder.

Order. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witness for his evidence.