Councillor Adam Hug and Dr Henry Dawson gave evidence.

We have Dr Dawson here physically and Councillor Hug on Zoom. Could you please introduce yourselves briefly?

Dr Henry Dawson:

Good afternoon. My name is Dr Henry Dawson. I work as a lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University and I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health’s housing advisory panel. I am here today to represent the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health.

Cllr Adam Hug:

I am Councillor Adam Hug. I am the Local Government Association’s chair for local infrastructure and net zero, which basically means its housing spokesman, among other things, and I am the leader of Westminster City Council. I am here at the LGA conference in Harrogate; apologies for that.

Q I have two questions, and perhaps we can start with the one that is relevant to both organisations. Both of you have expressed concerns about the enforcement burden that provisions of the Bill would place on local authorities. Although there is a new burdens protocol out there, could you share your views about the level of funding that would be required to enforce correctly and how that would best be financed?

Dr Henry Dawson:

Councillor Hug, shall I start and then pass on to you?

Cllr Adam Hug:

Okay.

Dr Henry Dawson:

At the moment, we have quite considerable extra burdens being placed on local authorities. The two major areas for that would be in the enforcement around the database and in managing the landlords who have either been rejected from or refused to join the ombudsman’s scheme.

In both cases, the fees that are available to be charged for the schemes will generate some revenue. However, national schemes, by their very nature, will have to be relatively low cost. Rent Smart Wales is a good example. It has an application fee that is little more than £100, so that allows for some intervention. However, the majority of the burden for the enforcement side of things under this new Bill will be placed on local authorities. If just 5% of a sector was to refuse to engage with one scheme or the other, a typical local authority would have around 700 properties that it had to carry out formal enforcement work on, and an awful lot of those would require civil penalty notices or prosecutions.

The CIEH is very keen to see that the funding for local authorities is linked directly to the fees for these schemes and represents the cost proportionately, with the additional burden being placed on the enforcement bodies for the private rented sector—environmental health and private housing enforcement teams.

The notable exception in the Bill is that the ombudsman fees are permitted to cover the cost for the ombudsman to enforce its statutory functions, but there is nothing specific in there, as there is for the database, for those funds to be passed on directly to a local authority.

The other thing we have found with previous legislation is that there is usually short-term additional funding from the Secretary of State’s general budget to support local authorities in introducing these new burdens, but then that sort of tails off. It is replaced with a whole miscellany of short periods of funding, which makes it impossible for local authorities to manage staffing and attract and train up new staff. We are therefore ending up with a situation where approximately half the posts we have for local authority enforcement teams in environmental health are going unfilled for more than six months. It has been a real hand-to-mouth existence for local government enforcement teams. If we could have funding proportionate to the size of the sector in a particular area coming directly from the fees for these national schemes, it would be very gratefully received by local authorities.

Q Councillor Hug, do you have anything to add to that point?

Cllr Adam Hug:

To echo that, I think it is important to understand where we are starting from. We have seen environmental health teams in councils cut over the last 14 years, because of the financial situations councils find themselves in. Environmental health officer posts are one of the top three most challenging roles for councils to fill at the moment. It is really important that the new burdens doctrine is applied properly, with up-front funding to make sure that councils can build teams to deliver this as quickly as possible.

We welcome the proposed fine retention, but we think there may be a case for raising the upper limit for the most egregious cases from the current £7,000 up to about £30,000 to fully capture the impacts of some of the worst properties, but also to ensure that revenue can fund council services that are enforcing this. We welcome this, but we must make sure that local councils are properly resourced to deliver it.

Dr Henry Dawson:

May I make one additional comment, please? At the moment, the Bill makes substantial use of civil penalty notices. We welcome the use of them. It is very welcome to see funding coming directly into local authority enforcement coffers, as it is something we do not get through prosecutions that are carried out through the courts. It is, however, worth pointing out that they represent the very thinnest end of the wedge for the enforcement activity of local authorities. We only use them where all the informal approaches—service of legal notices and so on—have been unsuccessful, and we are forced to resort to taking more punitive action.

In the majority of cases, we can resolve things informally with landlords, and the majority of landlords are good providers. It is just worth noting that while the penalties are a source of income, they are not predictable or particularly sustainable. Only around 50% of what we charge in penalties at the moment is collected, because of the difficulties in trying to capture the money at the other end of the process. I would just caution against assuming that they are a very reliable source that will keep us going. There are an awful lot of other things we have to pay for.

Q That is a point I made on Second Reading, so I entirely agree.

Under the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017, local authorities are significant users of the private rented sector for people who would otherwise be at risk of homelessness. It is common for local authorities to pay rent-in-advance deposits and use various other guarantee schemes to secure private rented sector homes for people who would otherwise not be able to access a home. Councillor Hug, I am interested in how you think the Bill would impact on the performance of that duty.

Cllr Adam Hug:

In terms of the ability for councils to procure accommodation, having stability in the rental market will help us in managing demand pressures. We are conscious that there is an interaction with the Housing Act 2004 requirements around the prevention duty. That is one of the major challenges created by this Bill, so we want to ensure that local authorities are properly resourced to cover the potential additional time beyond the current 56 days, where we are having to provide prevention support to people while enforcement happens—[Interruption.]

Q You froze for a moment there. We missed about the last 20 seconds.

Cllr Adam Hug:

Apologies; I was just saying that the biggest area of concern about our homelessness duties is ensuring that the increased costs to councils of providing the additional prevention duty over the length of time for which the section 8 notices are going through the court are properly captured. That, on the interaction with housing, is the area we are most concerned about, but it is all perfectly solvable.

Q Could we address the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 element? It is common for local authorities to engage with private rented sector landlords and act as guarantor to secure a property for someone who would not otherwise be able to access that property but would be put into temporary accommodation by the local authority. It is a better solution for the tenant and less costly for taxpayers. If the Bill were to prohibit local authorities from acting as guarantor in that situation, would that have an impact on their ability to secure those properties?

Cllr Adam Hug:

We are not aware that this Bill creates a particular problem in that regard. We can come back to you in writing if there is anything further, but it is not an area of particular concern to us at the moment.

Q Can we move on to licensing schemes? I know there has been much debate in the local government world about them, and I have seen at first hand their operation in London. Would you be able to say a bit about the barriers that exist at the moment to the implementation of licensing schemes? Do you think the Bill sufficiently addresses those barriers?

Cllr Adam Hug:

No, we do not think it does. The key thing for us is that you have the current selective licensing mechanisms, but councils face bureaucratic hurdles in terms of getting the Secretary of State’s sign-off for large schemes that wish to go down that route. In terms of ensuring decisions are made at the right level, in line with the Government’s commitment to devolution, we think that for selective licensing to really fulfil its potential we must ensure there is no longer a need for the Secretary of State’s sign-off.

Obviously, that sort of licensing can improve standards in the sector, help councils to recruit environmental health officers, beef up the function and make sure we are playing a proactive role in helping manage the private rented sector in a local area. Different councils have used it, but at the moment it is hamstrung by the bureaucratic hurdle of getting it up to the Secretary of State. Obviously, we have a Secretary of State who is probably more minded to support the use of such schemes than was the case in the past, but it still creates an unnecessary hurdle and a delay when councils could just get on and use these licensing schemes that are desperately needed.

Dr Henry Dawson:

May I add some responses? At the moment, we have a maximum five-year duration for discretionary licensing schemes. Once the schemes have been brought into force, it takes a certain amount of time to create the partnerships with other organisations, such as waste and street scene departments, police and antisocial behaviour teams, and antisocial behaviour schemes within the council, other charities and NHS-related bodies. They usually take between one and three years to mature.

Local authorities are also required to entice enough staff to be able to immediately provide a strong inspectorate to run these schemes. That can be anything from five to 50 staff, depending on the size of the scheme. We find that the five-year duration of schemes is a significant impediment, so it would be much more welcome to see something like a 10-year timeframe. That would permit us to train up new staff through the existing one or three-year qualifications. It would also allow these partnerships to mature so we see some of the true benefits of the schemes.

The other thing is that a large private rented sector is required; that is a point that a local authority has to prove when it is setting up one of these selective licensing schemes. We see that as an unnecessary hurdle to their introduction. They are part of a package of measures to address a range of problems associated with housing conditions, crime and antisocial behaviour across an area, and we see that as being an unnecessary impediment to their execution. It is one more thing that the local authority has to prove.

Finally, discretionary schemes, and particularly selective licensing, are one of the few things that provide access to properties. Even though the legislation has been changed, with some regulations to expand the use of selective licensing to include dealing with poor housing conditions, under the Housing Act 2004 we are unable to enforce conditions relating to the condition and contents of a property. We can only change those in HMO licensing conditions; we cannot change them in selective licensing conditions. Therefore, this is the first opportunity that we have really had, with a piece of primary legislation, to amend the Housing Act 2004 to provide parity in what local authority environmental health officers can require in the conditions and contents of properties through selective licensing, in addition to HMO licensing.

Q Could I follow up on the point about local authority enforcement? The Bill introduces an effective, consistent and proportionate framework for enforcement, but we have to ensure that local authorities can enforce in practice, and we know that there is variation across the country in their ability to do so. There is also the wider context about resourcing of local government over the recent period. We are clear that we want to primarily target along the “polluter pays” principle, with bad landlords covering the cost of their own enforcement.

You mentioned the fines—£7,000 for first or minor compliance issues, and £40,000 for more serious ones— and they can be levied repeatedly. I just want to get a sense of how much of the cost of enforcement you think those fines can account for. We recognise that it will not be enough, and that the new burdens principle will have to operate, but have you got a sense of it in terms of, as you say, how many cases are resolved before it reaches that point? What will be the willingness under the new system to levy these kinds of fines, and what proportion of the enforcement costs do you think, on average, local authorities might see those fines account for?

Dr Henry Dawson:

Thank you for your question, Minister. At the moment, we have the use of civil penalty notices, and I would defer to a report by the National Residential Landlords Association to provide a summary of their use over the period between 2001 and 2003. We see that approximately £12 million was given in penalties over that period, and around £6 million of that was recorded as collected through penalties over that period.

It is also worth noting that these civil penalty notices are intended to be an alternative to a prosecution through the courts; they are not intended to be a revenue generator. The licensing fees, the ombudsman fee and the database fees are where we can generate the revenue at the front end. These civil penalty notices are being used as a final, ultimate punishment for some of the worst offenders. Yes, we can administer £7,000 for the initial offence and £40,000 for ongoing offenders, but they really are intended to be a deterrent, as opposed to a source of revenue.

The majority—maybe 90%—of a local authority’s work is carried out through informal advice giving, with people ringing up and asking for guidance in what is a very complex legislative environment. That is certainly something that landlords and letting agents would like to have more of. We serve formal legal notices, but it is only when we have gone through a whole series of informal approaches that we move to a formal approach through a legal notice and, ultimately, a prosecution or penalty notice. Therefore, really, we are looking at maybe 5%—to pluck a figure out of the air—which is a tiny proportion of what we have got across the country, and probably the only national figures we have on this are those that have been pulled together by the NRLA.

Q I want to pick up on a specific point about the antisocial behaviour grounds for possession. Adam, the Local Government Association has expressed concerns about the definition of antisocial behaviour. I wondered whether that was linked to the previous definition, which we have amended.

Cllr Adam Hug:

indicated assent.

You are nodding vigorously, which is a good indicator, but have you got views more widely about the changes that we have made on antisocial behaviour—about being able to take action immediately, for example, or considering the implications on other people in a household, as well as that switch back to “likely”, rather than “capable of”, which we felt was too broad under the previous legislation?

Cllr Adam Hug:

Absolutely. We agree that the previous legislation was too broad to be meaningful. I think the key thing for us is supporting where we are now, in terms of reverting to “likely”, but, also, there needs to be clear guidance given by the Department—obviously, building on existing case law—with clear definitions from your team about what constitutes antisocial behaviour, both so that landlords know and so that councils can know regarding enforcement. I am sure that there are teams at the LGA, and others, that are happy to work with you on the development of that, but giving clear guidance to the sector is going to be essential to ensuring that the powers are used effectively.

Q We have spoken about the database before. I think it has the potential to be an incredibly powerful tool on a number of fronts to the benefit of tenants but also local authorities in bearing down on more disreputable landlords, including criminal landlords. Can you give us a sense of what you think the sector needs in terms of detail coming through in secondary legislation for that database to be able to operate most effectively for local authorities?

Dr Henry Dawson:

The CIEH would be keen to be part of discussions with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government about the operation of that database. I note that quite a lot of the content in the Bill is to be delivered through secondary legislation, and if we could be part of the shaping of that legislation, it would be very welcome. Things that would make it more effective include ensuring local authorities’ ease of access to the records on the database; providing local authorities with broad enforcement powers that would allow things such as the provision of information from any person; and the ability readily to access records of other local authorities’ enforcement activities. These sorts of records make it much easier for us to co-ordinate our activity across different areas of the country.

Having a single database operator, providing, as one of its functions, a source of advice in the industry would also provide us with a single point of information to refer people to when they come to us asking for support. That would alleviate a lot of the burden and the time our officers spend managing these requests for information. Therefore, we would not be relying on what are often chat forums and other informal information sources for our landlord operators to address problems on what is usually a responsive and as-and-when-they-occur basis.

Eighty-five per cent of landlords in the sector own one to three properties. That is roughly half the sector’s total housing stock, so those are the landlords we need to focus on trying to support. Providing advice and guidance will be an invaluable function of the database operator.

Q My question slightly expands on what David said earlier about the burden on local authorities. The new building safety legislation, for example, was really good news, but it had an impact on the level of staffing available to carry out roles, because of the conflict with the private sector, which might offer people higher salaries. Do either or both of you think that there is a similar risk with this Bill? What could we be doing to ensure that we have the right lead-in time and adequate staffing? Is there an immediate solution that we could learn from that previous example?

Dr Henry Dawson:

Councillor Hug, would you like to start?

Cllr Adam Hug:

As much support as possible in training up the next generation of environmental health officers is essential. There is a whole raft of skills shortages across the housing sector that you touched upon. Obviously, we want to make sure that people are considering this line of work as a career they want to go into rather than leave. There is a pipeline problem in terms of people coming into environmental health as a workstream, but I do not think that should necessarily delay what we are doing with the Bill. Ultimately, it has been talked around for some time; we need to crack on and get it done. It is absolutely the case that getting that local funding piece is right. Then we can join up with skills and training by making sure that local authorities have a pathway to recruit people into their teams. It is about getting the funding piece right alongside the direction of travel.

Dr Henry Dawson:

We face some barriers to bringing people into the profession. For example, we have some more sustainable sources of income with things like licensing legislation, where we can charge a fee; at the moment, my own research finds that only about half those schemes charge enough in fees to cover the full costs of management and enforcement. The Lawrence and Wilson review of selective licensing has shown that if we do not charge enough, it ends up reducing the exercise into a sort of glorified paperwork, so we have to charge enough to make it meaningful.

I would argue that staffing is probably one of the most fundamental issues when it comes to the effectiveness of the interventions proposed in the Bill. At the moment, the predominantly hand-to-mouth existence with local authorities, which we have had for quite a long time now, has been predicated on the fact that we are relying on the council tax payer to fund the enforcement of the private rented sector. That is quite peculiar compared with other industries such as building control or planning, which are able to levy up-front fees that do not have to go through a test of political will—which a lot of local authority managers have to navigate to try to predict what the market within their local political support will accept. It takes a lot out on the guesswork and acceptability side.

The ability to charge a fee also provides us with a sustainable and predictable source of income, and that has been lacking for a long time in local government. If you are never sure of whether you will have funding beyond one or possibly three years, with short-term pots of money that are provided often based on a competitive approach—it is about winning them—then you get a member of staff, but you have to train them once you have got them in. Being optimistic, we can train them through an apprenticeship scheme lasting a year to do just housing work, or if we are training them as an environmental health officer, it is three years for the traditional degree route or five years for an apprenticeship.

Having some form of ringfencing of the funding, which allows local authorities to dedicate resources to attract people into the profession, would be very helpful, as the report that I have pretty much every time I speak to a local authority about recruitment for my programme at the university is, “We don’t have the resources to send people to these events to raise awareness about the profession.” A lot of people are just not aware of what we do; once they find out, it is something that sells itself.

Fire and police are comparable bodies, and they tend to have much more success because they have the resources to devote to this. It comes down to sustainable and predictable funding. That allows us to train and retain, and attract new staff.

I have a question about the wider implications of the Bill and the impact on local authorities. For example, it would be helpful to understand whether you feel the abolishment of section 21 will have a wider implication, and how it might help to tackle some of the bigger homelessness challenges that local authorities are currently seeing—or whether it will have an impact at allQ .

Cllr Adam Hug:

I think the provision will help; the whole point is that we are desperate for this. It has been talked about for a long time and as soon as it can be brought in to provide security in the market, it will be extremely helpful to help stabilise a lot of tenancies where there is still uncertainty. The quicker it can come in, the more helpful it will be.

The Bill will not be a magic bullet that will solve the homelessness problems that councils are facing. I pointed out earlier one of the small technical challenges: the duties that local government will be dealing with will be extended in time and go up, we think, from 56 days to 21 weeks on average under the prevention duty. That is a small price to pay, but ultimately, we would like some help paying for that price.

In terms of stability in the private rented sector, this measure is long overdue and will hopefully take some heat out of the sector, but there are all sorts of things going on that mean that it is going to take a long time to turn around the wider issues of local government finance for temporary accommodation, because that is one of the biggest pressures; there are so many councils at the moment that are working hard to procure as much temporary accommodation as possible.

I call Harpreet Uppal.

My question has been answered already.

All right. In that case, I call Claire Hazelgrove.

Dr Dawson, I was thrilled to see that you are an external examiner for the University of the West of England, particularly focusing on environmental health. That university sits in my constituency, so thank you for the work you do to support students in our community.Q

You both have a wealth of experience and expertise; thank you for what you have shared already. I want to follow on from the last question and open the floor a bit more to see whether you had any additional thoughts about the Bill’s strengths or any areas where you feel it could be further strengthened—points that our questions so far have not let you speak to.

Dr Henry Dawson:

Councillor Hug, would you like to go first?

Cllr Adam Hug:

I think we have identified the key thing for us. Dr Dawson explained some of the challenges around funding stability, and we think that on many different levels it would be extremely helpful if the Bill made it easier to apply selective licensing schemes. Making it easier to use that existing tool would help to provide stability, but ultimately we are just very keen for this legislation to be passed through Parliament so that tenants get the extra protection and councils have certainty about what will be expected of them. We want to ensure that we are properly funded to help us to deliver this important task, but we are keen to get it right.

That brings us perfectly to our finishing time. May I thank both witnesses for their evidence? We will move on to the next panel.