Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clauses 10 and 11 stand part.

Government amendments 59, 62 to 65, 67 and 68.

Schedules 2 to 4.

Government amendment 72.

Schedule 5.

This Bill reforms the valuation process for leaseholders when they buy their freehold or extend their lease. It does this by repealing parts of existing legislation and setting out a new valuation scheme that leaseholders and landlords must follow. We are debating a large group of measures, so I am afraid—and I apologise to the Committee in advance—that my comments may be slightly longer than normal, in order to cover all of those.

Clause 9 amends the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, which deals with lease extensions and freehold acquisitions of houses. Subsections (1) to (3) make necessary changes to sections 8 and 9 of the 1967 Act in relation to freehold acquisitions. It mandates the use of clause 11, which sets out the new valuation scheme for calculating the price payable. Subsection (4) applies that to lease extensions for houses. I will shortly come on to that new valuation scheme covered in clause 11, the detail of which is contained in schedule 2. However, these changes introduce the valuation reforms contained in the Bill. I commend clause 9 to the Committee.

Clause 10 makes the necessary changes to the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, which deals with flats. The clause amends sections 32 and 56, and repeals schedules 6 and 13 of the 1993 Act, which deal with the freehold acquisition of a block of flats and lease extensions of a flat. In a similar way to clause 9, clause 10 mandates the use of clause 11 in determining the price payable for enfranchisement transactions—in relation to flats, rather than houses—and sets out the new valuation scheme for calculating the price payable. I commend clause 10 to the Committee.

Clause 11 provides the basis of the new valuation scheme that must be used to determine the price payable when exercising any of the four enfranchisement rights, which are acquiring the freehold of a house, extending the lease of a house, acquiring the freehold of a block of flats and extending the lease of a flat. The clause sets out that the premium is comprised of two elements: first, the market value, which is to be calculated in accordance with schedule 2; and, secondly, any other compensation, which is to be calculated in accordance with schedule 3.

Schedule 2 details the steps for calculating the price payable for lease extensions and freehold acquisitions. It also contains key reforms to the valuation process, including the removal of marriage value and hope value, capping ground rent at 0.1% of the freehold value in the valuation calculation, and providing the Secretary of State with a power to prescribe two rates used to calculate the premium.

The Minister just mentioned that schedule 2 eliminates marriage value. He will be aware, from the impact assessment, that there is a financial value associated with marriage value. Can the Minister tell me whether the Government think that marriage value is a real value—that it has intrinsic value—or is it just a number that has no material value at all? Is there something behind what marriage value is, and what is the rationale for eliminating it?

That is an interesting philosophical question to debate straight after lunch. The Government recognise that marriage value is utilised in a number of transactions. Therefore, some people in the market—some individuals, some economic actors—must deem that there is some form of additional value by marrying the lease and the freehold up within a shorter period of time. How that works, what exactly that is, and how expansive it is, is for others and for the market to determine, in a traditional and—something that I think we both would support—a wholly capitalist way. However, there does seem to be something to it, hence why we are making some of the reforms that we are making, given the feedback that we have been given.

I am grateful to the Minister for his summary, which I think is very accurate. Given that the Government have assessed that there is something real there, and decided that they want to eliminate the marriage value—obviously, a lot of work has gone into the preparation for that—what representations has he received about the legal underpinnings of this particular aspect of the legislation for those from whom that value is being taken?

The Government remain confident that the proposals being put forward are compliant with their responsibilities. I have only been in post for a short period of time, and my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch may wish to comment on this. The conversations I have had with the people who—I say this without breaking their confidence, given that some of them might be in camera—have come to me to represent their position have not focused on that as the main issue.

Schedule 2 also sets out how to divide the premium into shares, where multiple landlords are entitled to receive a share—for example, where there are intermediate landlords. We will go through that in further detail when we consider schedules 2 and 3. I commend clause 11 to the Committee.

I now turn to amendment 59, which is in my name. This amendment exempts business tenancies which qualify for enfranchisement rights under the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 from the standard valuation method. It is not our intention for the standard valuation method—especially the rent cap—to apply to any business rent, and this amendment closes off that possibility for a relatively rare type of lease where it might otherwise have existed. I commend this amendment to the Committee.

Turning to amendments 62, 63 and 64, which are in my name. Amendment 62 makes minor technical changes to assumption 1 in schedule 2 so that the clause operates as intended. The change to sub-paragraph 15(2)(a) makes the phrasing clear that the clause is about freehold acquisitions. The change to sub-paragraph 15(2)(b) is a minor and technical correction so that where a lease extension is granted by someone other than the freeholder, such as a head lessee, the assumption of merger with the interest of the person granting the extended lease still takes place for the purposes of the valuation methodology for intermediate leases. Amendments 63 and 64 fix typographical errors, by changing the word “property” to “premises”, as the latter is defined.

Turning to amendments 65, 67 and 68 in my name, these make small changes in schedule 2 so that the provision works as it was intended. Amendment 65 clarifies the valuation of the market value of a flat as it is to be used for the purposes of identifying the ground rent cap in the calculation of the term value. Amendment 67 makes a change to ensure that the definition of what is being valued is clear. Amendment 68 clarifies the valuation of the market value of a flat as it is to be used for calculating the reversion.

These amendments are intended to avoid any mis-interpretation of the standard valuation method. Some may mistakenly interpret the schedule as requiring a valuation of a flat as if it were a flying freehold which could cause it to be undervalued. Amendment 68 clarifies the meaning so that what is being valued is the share of the value of the freehold of the whole building and appurtenant property that is attributable to the flat. The amended text will make sure that the standard valuation method is interpreted as we intend it to be. I commend these amendments to the Committee.

Schedule 2 sets out how to apply the new standard methodology when calculating the premium that leaseholders of houses and flats need to pay to extend their lease or acquire their freehold. This includes fundamental reforms to the valuation process, including the removal of marriage value—which we have just discussed—and the capping of ground rent at 0.1% in the valuation calculation. These changes help to fulfil the Government’s aim to make it cheaper and easier for leaseholders to extend their lease or buy their freehold. The schedule is extensive and broken into seven parts.

Part 1 introduces schedule 2 and requires that this schedule must be followed when calculating the market value of the premium for lease extensions and freehold acquisitions for houses and flats. It also sets out how to divide the premium into shares where loss is suffered by multiple landlords. Part 1 also makes clear three definitions for the purposes of this schedule: that of “collective enfranchisement”, “freehold enfranchisement” and “lease extension”.

Part 2 of 7 sets out the basis of the market value for freehold acquisitions and lease extensions. Paragraph 2 does this for freehold acquisitions. It sets out that the market value of the freehold used in calculating the premium is the value of the freehold as if sold on the open market by a willing seller. Paragraph 3 does this for lease extensions. It sets out that the market value of the lease extension used in calculating the premium is the value of the 990-year extended lease, at peppercorn ground rent, as if sold on the open market by a willing seller. Paragraph 4 states that the premium for both acquisitions and extensions is to be determined in accordance with part 3 and on the basis of the assumptions set out in part 4.

Part 3 of schedule 2 sets out that while in general the standard valuation method must be used to determine the value of acquiring a freehold or extending a lease, there are some exceptions. The specific exceptions are set out in paragraphs 6 to 8 and include where the lease has five years or less remaining, where the property is subject to a home finance plan lease and where the lease is a market rack rent lease. For these purposes, a market rack rent lease is where the leaseholder has either paid no premium or a very low price for the lease in return for paying a high rent.

Paragraphs 9 to 11 set out some further detailed exceptions, including where there has been a pre-commencement lease extension of a house for 50 years at a modern ground rent. These paragraphs also explain that the standard valuation method only applies to a relevant flat in collective enfranchisements, where relevant flat excludes, for example, flats with shared ownership leases. Paragraph 12 provides that the standard valuation method can still be used to determine the value of the relevant freehold acquisition or lease extension, even when it is not compulsory to do so. Paragraph 13 makes it clear that the standard valuation method is to be used if either part 3 requires it to be used or where it is used on a voluntary basis in relation to the property being valued.

Part 4 of schedule 2 sets out the assumptions on which the valuation of freehold acquisitions or lease extensions are to be based, whether or not the standard valuation method is being used. Assumption 1 is that intermediate leases and freehold interests are treated as merged for the purposes of valuation where they are acquired in a freehold acquisition or where they are affected by the lease extension claim. The effect of assumption 1 is to simplify the process and lead to savings in process costs and premiums in some cases. This does not apply to intermediate leases that are not acquired. Assumption 2 is that the leaseholder is not, and never will be, in the enfranchisement market, nor will the leasehold and freehold interests by other means be married. The effect of assumption 2 is that no marriage or hope value is payable for either a lease extension or freehold acquisition. This will reduce premiums where leases have 80 years or fewer remaining and remove the cliff edge that leaseholders currently face.

Assumption 3 is that the relevant property is assumed to be in good repair and has not been improved under the current lease. The effect of assumption 3 is to prevent the premium being either decreased in favour of the leaseholder, due to the property being held in disrepair, or increased in favour of the landlord, due to the leaseholder having made improvements. The latter case would result in the leaseholders having paid for the improvements twice. In the case of a freehold house acquisition, assumption 3 will only apply to the current lease, removing the ability to chain together multiple long leases.

Assumption 4 is that where leasebacks are taken, their value is deducted from the freehold value, reducing the premium. Other assumptions can still be made when determining the market value, as long as they are consistent with assumptions 3 and 4 as well as the other provisions of schedule 2. The remaining paragraphs cover circumstances where the premium may have to vary, including to account for burdens or benefits on the title, differing terms in extended leases, leases with five years or fewer remaining, and where leaseholders own their immediately superior intermediate lease.

Part 5 sets out the standard valuation method, which is made up of three steps for lease extensions and freehold acquisitions. Combined with the assumptions set out in part 4, the resulting premium for many leaseholders will be lower than it otherwise would have been where they have leases with 80 years or fewer remaining, or high or escalating ground rents. The first step is to determine the term value, which is the capitalised value of the ground rent payable over the term of the lease. In other words, the landlord is compensated with a lump sum, instead of continuing to receive future ground rent for the remainder of the lease term. Part 7 must be used to determine the capitalised value.

In calculating the term value, a ground rent cap will now apply so that the valuation calculation will cap the ground rent at 0.1% of the freehold value. There are two exceptions. The first is where the leaseholder has paid no premium for the lease. The second is where the lease was purchased for a low premium in exchange for a high rent. In step two, the reversion value is determined. The reversion value compensates the landlord for the loss of the reversion at the expiry of the lease in the case of freehold acquisition and for the delayed reversion in the case of a lease extension.

For freehold acquisitions, the reversion value is the market value of the freehold at the expiry of the lease, discounted at the deferment rate. In a collective enfranchisement, this is calculated for each qualifying leaseholder’s lease. For lease extensions, the reversion value is the market value of a 990-year lease at peppercorn ground rent on the same terms as the new, extended lease and beginning at the end of the term of the current lease, discounted by the deferment rate.

Step 3 requires that the market value of the property determined by the standard evaluation method is found by adding the term and the reversion values in steps 1 and 2, and in collective acquisitions all the relevant term reversion values subject to any adjustments, as provided for in other parts. Part 5 gives powers to the Secretary of State to specify the deferment rate used to calculate the reversion value and includes a requirement to review the rate every 10 years.

Will the Minister explain why it is right to give the decision on those rates to the Secretary of State?

It is ultimately a balance, as we discussed this morning when talking about the fundamentals in clause 3, I think. We believe that it is proportionate to allow the Secretary of State to make a decision here, but I will be clear now and as we go through the Bill that that should be done only on an occasional basis, hence the reference to the 10-year review period.

Does the Minister accept that the absence of knowing what will be in the Secretary of State’s mind about what rate he or she may set affects the analysis of what is being done economically with the Bill quite significantly? What thought has he given to the legal challenge risks of holding back what is in the Secretary of State’s mind about what the rates would be?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. I accept the point that we need to get as much of that information to members of the Committee, the House and the public as quickly as we are able to do so. I know that he and other Members recognise that we have a process that we need to go through in that period, and I hope that we give enough information about the process and changes, although I accept the interaction that he indicates. My hon. Friend is an experienced Member; it is not my intention in any way, but forgive me if I say anything that he knows.

Obviously we must get through the process of working through the legal risk. It is a very contested area—we can see that already. There have already been indications that people will look at it extremely closely, so it would not surprise me if it was looked at extremely closely in most ways. There are potential legal issues on both sides, in that whatever we come out with, any public policy change often or always creates a group of people who do not like it, and they have an ability through due process and the law to see if there is anything in there that they dislike. I guess this is no different, but equally the Government are cognisant that it creates a challenge in this domain. We must go through the process of having the consultation, which only closed quite recently, and giving enough time for that to be considered and transacted on before we come to a conclusion; otherwise, there is potential legal risk there as well.

Part 6 sets out how a premium determined under parts 1 to 5 should be divided among multiple parties, such as intermediate landlords and freeholders. That creates a saving in process costs for leaseholders, as the work of dividing the premium is picked up by the affected parties. The part specifies that the division is made according to how each person’s interest has been devalued or lost by the claim, termed as “loss”. It sets a formula that takes the market value, provided for in parts 1 to 5, multiplies it by that person’s loss and divides it by the total losses of all the parties. Loss cannot include marriage value or hope value, which we are preventing from forming part of the premium.

Finally, part 7 of seven sets out how to calculate the term value—that is, the capitalised value of the ground rent payable for the remainder of the term of the lease. That is a component of the premium, as explained in part 5, under different rent review clauses. Depending on the lease, the ground rent payable may not be subject to review; or it may be subject to review such that the rent payable after the review is known; or it may be subject to a review that makes reference to price inflation, for example, or the capital or rental value of the property. Part 7 is entirely technical and sets out the formulae that apply in each case. The inputs into the formulae are the rent payable, the term for which it is payable and the capitalisation rate. In all cases, where the rent payable exceeds 0.1% of the freehold value of the property, the ground rent cap applies, so that the rent payable is treated as if it is only 0.1% of the freehold value. Part 7 gives a power for the Secretary of State to specify the capitalisation rate used to calculate the term value, and includes a requirement to review that rate every 10 years. I commend the schedule to the Committee.

I turn to schedule 3. As stated in debate on clause 11, schedule 3 sets out when, and to whom, “other compensation” must be paid by enfranchising leaseholders. “Other compensation” is a concept in law; it acts as a top-up payment that landlords and other parties can claim if an enfranchisement claim impacts on their interest. The schedule permits other “reasonable” compensation to be paid in two types of cases. Although it continues an existing practice, it works to ensure that the top-up cannot be used to claim for values already covered by the standard valuation method in part 5.

First, other compensation is available where the enfranchisement claim causes a devaluing of property outside the premises subject to the claim. Secondly, other compensation is available where loss is caused to other property not subject to the claim, but only to the extent that it is referable to a person’s ownership of any interest in other property. If, for example, a landlord owns an unbroken parade of terraced houses and there is a freehold acquisition of one house, the landlord might claim for other compensation if they can demonstrate that the value of the whole parade has been diminished due to one of the houses enfranchising. The schedule sets out that it does not matter whether the landlord had other options, such as leasebacks, but did not take them. It also sets out definitions, such as the meaning of development value. I commend the schedule to the Committee.

I turn to schedule 4, which defines many of the terms used in schedules 2 and 3 that determine the make-up of an enfranchisement premium. It points to different parts of the schedules to demonstrate the meaning of those terms. For instance, the meanings of “term value” and “reversion value” are as described in schedule 2. I commend the schedule to the Committee.

I turn to amendment 72 in my name, which corrects a typographical error in schedule 5 so that the provision works as intended. As a result of the amendment, Paragraph 7(3)(b) of that schedule will require the tenant, not the competent landlord, to pay into the tribunal the whole price payable. That is a new protection that could be used, for instance, where there are valid concerns about the conduct of a landlord handling the claim on behalf of others. I comment the amendment to the Committee.

Schedule 5 makes necessary consequential amendments that help to plug into existing law the new valuation methodology set out in clause 11 and schedule 2. It makes amendments to support the new valuation process in enfranchisement claims that involve multiple landlords, such as intermediate landlords and freeholders. That includes a fallback power, which enables leaseholders to require the transfer of property or grant of a lease, even if the landlords have not yet settled on how to divide the premium. That would be useful, for instance, if multiple landlords were in dispute with each other and it was threatening to hold up the claim.

The provisions also require the premium to be paid to the landlord handling the claim on behalf of the other landlords. They prevent landlords from requiring leaseholders to pay their share directly, as that would undermine the new valuation process where it involves intermediate leases. However, a new protection has been added that permits an individual landlord to require the whole price to be paid into the tribunal. That could be used, for example, where there are valid concerns about the conduct of a landlord handling the claim on behalf of others. With huge gratitude for allowing me to go through all of that, I commend schedule 5 to the Committee.

The Minister made a commendable effort to explain the various Government amendments and schedules in this part of the Bill. Briefly, for purposes of clarity, let me say that we have a lot to say about valuation, but we will do so when we debate schedule 2.

I add my words of appreciation to those of the shadow Front-Bench spokesman for the Minister’s explanation. I want to add one brief point of clarity on marriage value, which was alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire. It is fair to say that marriage value is seen as one of the outdated, feudal and predatory practices of freeholders. It prevents people who have bought a house or flat in good faith from enjoying their property as we would expect them to do in a free country such as the UK.

I will not detain the Committee, but I recommend that anybody watching these proceedings or interested in the subject reads an absolutely fantastic article on leaseholdknowledge.com. That is a leaseholders’ charity that has done a superb and detailed work on this topic. An article by a gentleman called Linz Darlington explains that marriage value is particularly unfair, because people pay not only their own fees, but the freeholder’s fees, and there is a concept of hypothetical profit. The whole thing is just a massive racket—I am not qualified to explain it any better than that, so I leave my comments there. Many people have told me that marriage value should go. It is part of an outdated system. Read the article on the website. I commend the Government for bringing forward this very important part of the overall package of reforms.

It is a good to see you in the Chair, Dame Caroline. We are blessed on this Committee to have three people who have been Housing Ministers, the great experience and expertise of the hon. Member for Brent North, and the good graces of the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. I was recently speaking about the Bill to my right hon. Friend Damian Green, who pointed out that there were discussions about some of the measures in the Bill when he was the adviser to Sir John Major in No. 10 in the 1990s.

I have none of the expertise or experience of any of the people I have just mentioned, so it is with humility that I rise to make some observations. My first observation, which is not specific to the Bill, is that whenever there is a clear consensus between Government and Opposition, problems usually arise subsequently. We have just spoken about 29 pages of schedules and two pages of clauses —31 pages of a 130-page Bill—and I heard one or two sentences from the shadow Minister. [Interruption.] Oh, the shadow Minister is coming back in later; good. I am encouraged. I was called to speak straight after my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch, rather than us bouncing between Government and Opposition Members, so I was worried. My first concern was that we were going through a very large proportion of the Bill very quickly. Grouping so much of the Bill together is a choice. It is perfectly within the ambit of the Opposition to say, in the Programming Sub-Committee, “We will do clause 9 stand part, then clauses 10 and clause 11, and then schedule 2 separately,” but in the planning done by the Government and Opposition Whips, we decided to put all the provisions together, so that we brush past them very quickly, hoping that no one will notice. I notice a twinkle in the eye of the hon. Member for Brent North.

Does the hon. Gentleman suspect that the reason why my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich allowed such a grouping is that we hope that after the next general election, Parliament will be presented with a new Bill that does away with this nonsense altogether?

Well, maybe. I am not a mind reader, either of the mind of the shadow spokesperson or the mind of the great British public. They will make their decision at the next election and, I hope, return a Conservative Government for a fifth consecutive term, but that is not the import of my points today.

My first point was that the public should beware when they see such circumstances, not because anything is necessarily wrong, but because it is a leading indication that consensus is overwhelming scrutiny.

I rise to make two points. The first is that I will speak in great detail about valuation when we come to schedule 2, as I have indicated, because the meat of the Opposition’s concern relates to the deferment rate, which we will come to. Secondly, does the hon. Gentleman broadly agree that one of the reasons why this or any Committee would struggle to properly scrutinise this large group of schedules and clauses is that none of us has relevant expertise as professional valuers? One of the reasons why the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee asked to undertake pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill was precisely that it is so complex in certain areas, this area being a case in point.

It is a fair point, but I think we can get our heads around most of it. The general principles in this Bill are no different from those of others. There are some formula there; and when we see a formula such as one over one minus c to the power of n with a deferment rate of theta, we get worried that we do not understand. It takes us back to doing calculus at school. However, we can understand it—though within it there are some important things. The shadow Minister makes a good point, but there are amendments to schedule 2: the Government’s, his, and mine. I will make the point—and if I am wrong the Clerks will correct me, through the Chair—that we are debating the overall principle of schedule 2, not just the detail, though it is fair to raise some points about that.

I will come on to calculations of particular discount rates later, when we debate schedule 2. I thought the Minister gave an excellent answer about the legal challenge and this being a hotly contested area. That is what I want to draw the Committee’s attention to. On all sides, whatever our views, we want to ensure that we pass the Bill in a way that most minimises the chances of legal challenge. I want to do that from a Conservative perspective. I believe in property rights, competition, and freedom of choice.

I want to go through some of the issues raised by schedule 2 that we heard about in the evidence sessions, and in written evidence that the Committee received. The first is the recognition that, of necessity, the Bill deals with existing contracts that a buyer and a seller, for want of better phrases, have entered into. We can read into the circumstances in which a contract was undertaken. We have evidence that people did not know what they were getting into, and about the imbalance of power in some circumstances. My question is: what aspects of the buyer-seller contract and the imbalance of power are a particular matter for change? There have been good arguments on that so far. In my view, it is an open question. In dealing with existing contracts that, because of their terms, require certain other actions, have the Government in this Bill struck the right balance between extending freedom of choice and rebalancing rights on the one hand, and transfer of value on the other? I am not entirely sure that they have. Perhaps later we can discuss that a bit more. The first stage of dealing with existing contracts involves the question of whether the exchange of value has been a short-cut for expansion of freedom of choice. I do not know what the answer is, because I am not as smart as some of the people here.

Given that we are dealing with existing contracts, the second point is that a political decision has been made to redistribute. That word seems to have power beyond my intention; it seems perhaps that somehow I regard redistribution as evil. It is not, necessarily, but the point is that this is a political decision, and it involves redistribution. Schedule 2 determines the overall basis for that.

When we make a political decision, it is important to have the facts and figures in front of us. If we do not have them, what we are determining may have unintended consequences, or may overreach our intention. What we may believe is right in principle might in practice turn out to be a horrendous mistake. It is clear that, as a point of principle, people feel that we should make some changes, and I have no qualms about that, but in the absence of full facts and figures, there is a risk that we are making a decision in the context of trying to minimise legal challenge. The Secretary—the Minister, but he should be a Secretary of State—responded to two points about this.

First, there is the issue of the lack of full knowledge. We do not know what discount rate will be applied by the Secretary of State. Anyone who does any evaluation of any business or anything in finance will understand that a huge amount of value sway goes with what discount rate is used. We do not know what it is, so we will not know ultimately what it encompasses.

Secondly, we know from the impact assessment that there is line after line of transfers—not benefits—in the Bill. Colleagues can go to the impact assessment if they wish, and see line after line of transfers that are non-monetised. Frankly, most of these are pretty reasonable and probably minimal, but I do not know—maybe other Committees do and can tell me clearly—what the economic value of each of them was. “Non-monetised” is not the same as having no monetary value. The Committee ought to know whether they are non-monetised because it was too hard to monetise them, or because they were of no monetary value. I do not expect the Minister to respond on each one because, trust me, there are a lot of lines, but this adds to our lack of knowledge about the financial consequences of the political decision to redistribute.

Thirdly, we have a pending—it may now be finished—public consultation on ground rents. The Secretary of State will have the responses to analyse, and he was pretty clear about his intention at the start, which hon. Members mentioned, so I think it is important that that information comes forward. It is a pity that the information is not here right now for us to evaluate in Committee and come to a clear consensus on. The hon. Member for Brent North and I could shake hands across the aisle and agree on it. We do not have the information to reach that conclusion. For those three important reasons, we are a little in the dark when it comes to this political decision to redistribute. Perhaps the Minister can assist me on that.

This is important, because in schedule 2 we are eliminating completely value, which is a real thing. We know that. We are expunging it completely for a political reason. We have inadequate analysis on who that value is being taken. We have good insight into who they might be, but we do not know who they are. It is important to understand that that these are real values—values that have been subject to abuse. That goes to the political underpinning and political imperative for making these changes, which is, as I understand it—again, I am very naive on these issues—that there has been abuse in the system. I have listened to the evidence about the sources of that abuse, and it is clear that the abuses are real. The Government are not acting blindly on the basis of no facts, and the Opposition are supporting them because they see that there are some wrongs to be corrected.

Not only have the Government accepted that, but this follows a very detailed investigation by the Competition and Markets Authority, which concluded that there were significant wrongs. It came to my constituency, interviewed my constituents and assessed that there were problems with mis-selling. That is why this is such an important issue for so many people. They put their hard-earned money into what they thought was going to be their property, but discovered that that was not the case.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why we are passing this legislation. I want to be clear about that, because there will be circumstances in freeholder-leaseholder relationships where the performance has been inadequate or poor. There may be circumstances where the performance has been perfectly reasonable.

In some ways, I am doing the Government’s job, but I would just probe the hon. Gentleman on the Government’s intention, specifically in relation to value. At least on the basis of my understanding, it is not to right an abuse in the system. It is to remove payments, which are very real for leaseholders, that are based on a hypothetical profit that some would argue should not exist in a fair market. It is not about righting specific wrongs but a systemic wrong in the valuation process, from the Government’s point of view.

The hon. Gentleman may take issue with that, perhaps because he does not agree with one of the main objectives of the Bill—to make the enfranchisement process cheaper for leaseholders—or maybe he just takes issue with the fact that we do not know the prescribed figures that the Secretary of State will set, so we do not have a real sense of the values. The clause is attempting to right a systemic wrong as regards marriage value and other components of the existing valuation method. It is not just dealing with specific abuses in the system by bad faith actors.

I agree with the shadow Minister. I am not trying to undermine the intentions of the Bill—I agree with them—but I want them to be legally secure, and I want to probe and understand them. He said that these are hypothetical profits, but they are not quite hypothetical. They would only be hypothetical if they were not real, but as we have already heard, they are. They are calculated profits, and it is a matter of how that calculation is determined that is at issue, not whether they are hypothetical or real.

The hon. Member tempts me to engage in the philosophical debate that the Minister alluded to, and I think it is debatable whether they are real. Let me put it to him like this. If I own a vase, is the value of a second vase increased by the fact that I own the first one? That is what marriage value is doing; it is the hypothetical profit from the joining of the leases. I think it is at least debatable as to whether it is real in the sense that he advances, although it is very real for leaseholders who have to pay it if they seek to enfranchise under the current system.

Somebody had to mention the vase.

Or the cup and saucer?

I am just so glad it was not me. The Minister and shadow Minister are far more experienced than I am on this matter, so I am drawing on a much more limited data set than they are. But, to date, I have not heard loud and clear that there is no such thing as marriage value. I have heard that there are questions about how it is calculated and that we do not think it should apply, which is a political point of view. If the shadow Minister is trying to say that there is something else he wants, between the issues of calculation and of making a political decision to transfer it, that is interesting to me. I do not think that he has been trying to make that point, and I certainly do not think we have heard that evidenced.

It is a crucial point. The idea that we are expunging values that relate to something real, which is under contract, is a material point in trying to make this legislation bulletproof or, as the Minister rightly says, to ensure that, in a hotly contested area, the Government get it right. In circumstances where there are real values —although perhaps massively overemphasised—where performance has been exemplary or to contract, where there has been no question of the performance required under contract, and, finally, where there has not been price gouging, or this automatic doubling every two years, and the rents have remained the same, what is the reason to apply legislation retrospectively?

Does my hon. Friend not agree that the concept of ground rent itself is “gouging”, to use his word, because it is a payment for nothing? Clearly, the freeholders are receiving payment through service charges and the price of buying and selling a lease. The ground rent is a payment for nothing. Whether it is, in his words, a reasonable one and not gouging but is kept low and so on, still, in my mind and certainly that of many leaseholders, the Competition and Markets Authority, the Government and the analysis, it is a payment for nothing and so, fundamentally, it is wrong and unfair. I wonder what my hon. Friend thinks about that.

The former Minister makes an excellent point. She knows much more about this than I do and therefore I am very wary about falling into the trap of answering her question directly. What I will say is that, for the purposes of my speech today, what I think is not important. What is important is this: what will the courts find, and how have we ensured that the Bill is robust in those circumstances? I will say, without answering my hon. Friend’s question, that people sometimes sign contracts for things that they do not use or that have no value, but there is an argument that they signed a contract and it had these line items in it. People may sign a contract that gives them access to a swimming pool or gym and they may not use it. I do not mean to be pejorative, because these are very important issues. I am just saying that the principle is that, whether ground rent is real or not, it is still subject to the fact that it was part of a contract that was signed, and that will have weight in any legal challenge to the Bill.

rose—

I do not know whether the hon. Member for Brent North wants to intervene and give me some more knowledge.

The hon. Member’s colleague, the hon. Member for Redditch, made a pertinent intervention in relation to ground rent, but I wanted to try to address what philosophical issues he is having with marriage value. Marriage value is an additional element of value created by the combination of two or more assets or interests where the combined value is more than the sum of the separate values. That is why the cup and saucer and the vase analogies are apposite. He seems to me to be seeking to say, “Well, if this exists, if people are actually paying this, it’s real; it’s not a fiction.” Let me set out my understanding of what the Government are trying to do and, indeed, what Parliament has tried to do on many occasions, going back to 1967, after we passed the legislation to right what had happened in the Custins v. Hearts of Oak case, where marriage value had been introduced against the will of Parliament. The point is this. If someone is the leaseholder, the person who owns that lease to the home, it is much more important to them than to anybody else in the world that they get the freehold together with it. That is the other vase; that is the saucer that goes with the cup. To them, that is important and it has a value that it does not have for the rest of the world. That is why they are constrained, and that is the constraint that Parliament has repeatedly tried to free people from, because they are not simply a willing seller in a free market with a willing buyer in a free market. This person, as the leaseholder, is a buyer under special measures.

Order. May I interrupt you and point out very gently that this is quite a lengthy intervention, Mr Gardiner?

I am happy to be guided by you, Dame Caroline. I think I have made the point and I hope that the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire will be able to take it on board, because it does go to what I think he would recognise from a free market point of view as the essence of why this is important.

Dame Caroline, you were not in Committee when I made a point of order on the hon. Member for Brent North, perhaps inadvisably, but this time I thought his intervention was very helpful, so I would like to commend him. That point is very helpful to my understanding, and I appreciate his building my understanding further. We will have to see.

My purpose in making these points is to look at the possibilities of legal challenge. I am not a lawyer so I am probably one of the first to do that anyway, but the principles behind schedule 2 relate to existing contracts and make a political decision to redistribute value to full or some extent. In Committee, however, we are doing this where we do not have complete financial information about the extent to which we open ourselves to the charge that our decision will have unintended consequences. We are putting a lot of faith in the Government to get that right.

We are dealing with different situations: where, in a relationship between a freeholder and a leaseholder, freeholders are providing poor service or have been price gouging; or where other freeholders have entered into contracts, done all the right things under that contract and behaved in a very excellent way, but we are now retrospectively going to change all their contracts. I want to put on the record some of my concerns about doing so. I understand that the intention of the House as a whole is to move forward, but I am interested in whether the Minister has any comment on that—he does not need to—or has something interesting to add.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Caroline. I was triggered to speak by some of the references to limiting ground rents to 0.1% of the property value, and am feeling nostalgic about my ten-minute rule Bill from June 2019, the Ground Rents (Leasehold Properties) Bill. That is an issue that I have been interested in and concerned about since I got to Parliament.

In my ten-minute rule Bill, I suggested that we limit ground rents to 0.1% of the property value, or £250, depending on which was the higher. In the evidence session, we heard that in some parts of the country, ground rents can very quickly become onerous for existing or prospective mortgage lenders. I want to ensure, however, that we do not let certain elements of our discussion of the clauses of the Bill pass by without celebrating the great things that are going on in it.

To some people, this might be a dry exchange, with some technical data about calculations—as a civil engineer, I love a bit of differential calculus, but it might not be to everyone’s liking—but some great stuff is going on in the Bill. We should be enthusiastic about that and celebrating it, because it will genuinely make a difference to the lives of people who are listening. It has also made a great difference to my life, because I feel as if I am seeing my ten-minute rule Bill slowly come back to life in this Committee.

It is as if we have all the emotions in an all-encompassing and unexpectedly interesting post-lunch debate. Let me try to summarise as quickly as I can. I am grateful for everyone’s contributions.

Turning to the substantive points made by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, I, like him, start from the principle that if there is consensus, we should look at things in more detail without casting any aspersions on our colleagues on the other side of the aisle. I think there is consensus not because I have suddenly converted to social democracy or socialism—that is absolutely not the case—but because even from different angles we can see that there is a challenge. I will try to argue this a little from Conservative principles for a moment.

I recognise the absolutely reasonable points made by my hon. Friend about the additional information that is needed, which we have talked about on multiple occasions, and I recognise that there are always inherent dangers and unintended consequences in any change, which is why things need to be thought through in the manner in which he indicated. In the limited time I have had experience of this matter, however, I have been convinced that the proposal is proportionate, and that is why I am in Committee today on behalf of the Government.

My hon. Friend rightly made the point about how property rights and contract law are the absolute bedrock of our functioning as a society. In particular as Conservatives—to speak just for those on this side of the aisle for a moment—we seek not to move them around, change them, or amend them on a regular basis, because certainty and clarity are at the heart of a functioning and robust democracy. As Conservatives and from the centre-right, however, we also have a deep aversion to rent-seeking and middlemen, and we have a deep and avowed, if imperfect, commitment to free and more perfect markets.

There is a challenge with all manner of things, whether that is marriage value or the percentage used in ground rent. If we were dealing with a market in widgets, with very low barriers to entry, a plethora of supply, and the ability for people to come in and out on a regular basis, I would potentially draw a different conclusion, but the reality is that the housing market is severely constrained by a number of factors, and it has been for many decades. It is not a perfect market. Therefore, it is proportionate to regulate in the ways we are talking about.

On the point about rent-seeking and middlemen, we must be cautious about legislating via anecdote, which we should not do. We must absolutely do the kind of deep analysis that hon. Members suggested a moment ago that we should. I am led to believe that a lot of what we are seeing with ground rent and other aspects included in the Bill would not have been visible 20, 30 or 40 years ago, because it would not have happened. Effectively, a market has been created—at least in part if not wholly—because, for want of a better phrase and without being pejorative, loopholes have been exploited. That has enabled middlemen to take profit out and distort the market, making it less perfect and meaning we have ended up in the place where we are today.

I absolutely share the caution expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire about making sure the elements are right. We may differ in the end about whether or not the changes are proportionate, but I know we share the ultimate objective that the market should be made perfect. The clauses take us in that direction. It is an absolute requirement from a Conservative perspective to smash middlemen and rent-seekers and make sure that they do not take money from people for no reason. For those reasons, I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 9 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 10 and 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.