Mark Beacon and Rozanne Foyer gave evidence.

We have until 4.30 pm for this session. Could the witnesses start by introducing themselves for the record?

Mark Beacon:

My name is Mark Beacon. I am an international officer at Unison. Unison is the largest trade union in the UK, representing 1.3 million workers working in public services. Although our members are UK-based, we take a very keen interest in and recognise the importance and value of working collectively internationally to uphold human rights and workers’ rights. That is one of the key reasons why the Bill is of interest to us.

Rozanne Foyer:

My name is Rozanne Foyer. I am general secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress. STUC is Scotland’s federation for trade unions. We have over 600,000 members in Scotland.

Q First, can I ask whether you support the BDS movement?

Mark Beacon:

Unison has consistently advocated for a two-state solution—for a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel. We support boycott, divestment and sanctions as a method to put pressure on the Israeli Government to bring about peace and a viable two-state solution. In terms of the work we are talking about here around pension fund engagement and investment, we have been calling for the local government pension scheme to begin the process of divestment from companies on the United Nations list of business enterprises involved in and with the illegal settlements, and to begin the process of time-limited engagement with other companies that are contributing to violations of human rights. Of course, our focus is very much on the Occupied Palestinian Territories and upholding human rights and international law within that context.

Q We have heard an awful lot of evidence today that the BDS movement has not contributed to peace in the middle east, but that it has simply targeted Israel and led to community friction in the UK. Do you agree with those sentiments that have been expressed very broadly today?

Mark Beacon:

If you look specifically at our work on this, it is very much targeted at the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We are focusing on companies that are contributing to a grave violation of international law and breach of the Geneva conventions. It is also worth adding that BDS is not something we have used exclusively in the context of Palestine and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. You can look to examples such Myanmar and Western Sahara and, historically, countries such as South Africa. It has played a big role. Trade unions throughout the world use it. When it comes to boycott, divestment and sanctions—mainly divestment in this case—what we do is listen to the calls of our trade union partners around the world and ensure that what we are doing is reflecting their demands in these areas.

Q Rozanne, can I bring you in on those points?

Rozanne Foyer:

The STUC has a long-standing policy of support for a peaceful two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. We also have, since 2009, supported BDS as a policy and a campaigning method. Basically that has been part of our international campaigning for decades, not just in relation to Israel. Fifty years ago we supported Rolls-Royce workers who refused to repair the aeroplane engine—[Inaudible.]

Rozanne, I do apologise. We are struggling to hear you. Do you have a microphone available that you could plug in?

Rozanne Foyer:

No, I do not.

It is quite difficult to pick up what you are saying. You do not have a headset?

Rozanne Foyer:

No, sorry, I do not.

As long as the Committee is content to carry on. Sorry, I apologise for interrupting you; I just wanted to see whether we could improve the sound quality.

Rozanne Foyer:

I will try to speak closer to the monitor to use the microphone in there.

That is a bit better.

Rozanne Foyer:

Through the 1980s, we played a key role in the anti-apartheid movement. Boycott, divestment and sanctions also played a key role in that movement. The trade union movement in Scotland was quite instrumental in encouraging local authorities such as Strathclyde and Glasgow City to take steps to support Nelson Mandela. That was at a time when he was still considered a terrorist by the UK Government. I just want to make the point that, generally, support of that type of activity is something that our movement has been involved in.

In 2009, we sent a factfinding delegation to Palestine. It talked to all parties—Israeli trade unionists and Palestinian trade unionists—and produced a report. On the back of that report, we agreed a policy of boycott, divestments and sanctions against the Israeli state. The aim was to create pressure to end Israel’s illegal occupation and establishment of settlements classed as illegal under international law. It was also to campaign against the violation of the human rights of Palestinians by the Israeli state as defined by the United Nations. We worked with our affiliates to support BDS strategy and we produced guidance on it in 2019. Our BDS policy is fully supported by the Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions.

In 2022, the STUC supported a delegation from Dundee Trades Council to Palestine, which met again with both Palestinian and Israeli trade unionists. Following the reports received from that delegation about the situation on the ground for workers, and the continued human rights violations of Palestinian workers, the STUC Congress reaffirmed its policy to support BDS in 2023. We are not formally affiliated with any BDS movement, as you described it, and we do not wish our support for BDS to be interpreted as blanket support for any of the policies or views of other bodies or organisations that might identify with the wider BDS movement.

Q Thank you. I understand that one of Unison’s concerns is freedom of expression for elected officials. The Government’s view, which I think has been backed up by most of the legal witnesses we have heard today, is that the Bill does not apply to private individuals or private companies, so it does not apply to elected councillors if they are operating in a private capacity. In the light of that, do you not think that councillors should be focused on running their local authorities as opposed to making foreign policy statements?

Mark Beacon:

We do not see this as an issue about foreign policy or local authorities having a jurisdiction over any form of foreign policy. What it is about is public bodies upholding internationally recognised norms regarding human rights, labour rights and international law.

Q Do you think that the BDS movement has contributed towards peace in the middle east?

Mark Beacon:

If you look at the situation now and how it has eroded and if you look at the plans of the current Government—the coalition agreement, for example, has a section in it that focuses on annexation of huge swathes of the west bank—Palestinian society is in a very difficult position at the moment, because the prospects for peace and a viable two-state solution sadly seem to be diminishing. We hope that international pressure and voices from the trade union movement and other civil society organisations will raise that up the international agenda and bring about more realistic prospects of a viable two-state solution.

Q Do you think that one local authority in the UK can raise that up the public agenda? We have seen with Russia and Ukraine that we need concerted international action at a Government level.

Mark Beacon:

Of course, it takes many small steps. In local authorities, we are talking generally about a response to the requests or concerns of members of pension schemes. Local authorities and pension committees take on those legitimate concerns of members on how investments are made, and act on those. A single local authority will of course not make a massive difference, but if that is taking place across the UK and internationally, it will add to pressure and encourage the UK Government to take a stronger position on some of the issues.

Five Members have indicated that they would like to ask questions, and we need to conclude by 4.30 pm—just so everyone is aware.

Q Thank you for joining us. Mark, I have to be honest, I am a member of Unite, not Unison—do not hold that against me. Scotland has a proud history of promoting social justice, human rights and respect for international law on the world stage. In 1981, Glasgow City Council decided to award Nelson Mandela freedom of the city. It was the first city in the world to do so. In 1986, St George’s Place in the city centre was renamed Nelson Mandela Place. Had this Bill been introduced in the 1980s, the legislation would have stopped Glasgow City Council from taking those steps. Why is that so concerning?

Rozanne Foyer:

It is really concerning. Based on what some of the other expert panellists have said today, I have to say that I fundamentally disagree with some of them, particularly Mr Tomkins’s assessment of devolution. We need to understand the point of view. This is not about local authorities or devolved Government setting foreign policy; this is about procurement policy, democracy and taxpayers’ money. It is arguable that with the anti-apartheid movement, Glasgow City Council started a wave that the UK Government and the rest of the world eventually had to listen to and go with. I believe strongly that democracy starts on the ground with the people and moves up from them. The Bill centralises reserved powers. It does the opposite of devolution and of giving power to the people. That is really concerning. With the Bill, we would certainly not have got to that position, and that important work that happened in the ’80s would not have been able to take place.

My member is a member of the pension scheme, and has a democratic right in workplace democracy to have a say on what happens to their reserved pay. It is their money that sits in the pension scheme. They have a right to have a say in how that money is spent and to ensure that it is spent ethically. My members are citizens of local authorities and pay their taxes to local authorities and to the Government. They have a right to demand that their local authority and Government adhere to human rights policy, and adhere to the best standards of employment policy and of policy on procurement. Procurement is devolved, and so are human rights, so are things like economic development. It is not as simple as saying that these devolved authorities cannot talk about, or make policies that relate to, foreign policy. What we are talking about here is procurement policy and how citizens’ taxes and pension moneys are spent. As far as I am concerned, the Westminster Government and the Secretary of State have no business in telling us how to do that.

Just to interrupt very quickly, Rozanne, we are struggling to hear you and Hansard is struggling to pick up what you are saying for the record. Please can you do whatever you can to speak as loudly as possible into the microphone to try to help us?

Rozanne Foyer:

I will do what I can.

Q Mark, do you want to add anything?

Mark Beacon:

Not really, apart from the fact that I do not think many people would look back now on the actions that local authorities took around the anti-apartheid movement—their involvement in action against apartheid —and the investment and procurement decisions they took and say that that was wrong. Of course, we are now in a situation in which procurement is far greater; in the UK, we are talking about public bodies procuring up to £380 billion of goods and services. It is amazing to think of the positive impact that that procurement could have internationally if public bodies were to utilise it to encourage companies to uphold the UN guiding principles on business and human rights, for example.

Q A final question from me: unions have historically been at the forefront of political causes, so will the Bill impact the ability of members of trade unions to take a stand on issues such as human rights abuses? Mark, would you like to start?

Mark Beacon:

Yes, it will. If you look at Unison’s international work, we work as a key part of Public Services International, which is the global trade union federation for public service workers, and we campaign on a wide range of international issues. Palestine is one of our priorities at the moment, but there are also Turkey, Brazil, Colombia, and business and human rights. We work on Zimbabwe and a range of other issues. As public service workers, that is really important. Our members will be very concerned about, first, how their pensions are invested and, secondly, procurement decisions and the impact that they have internationally. For example, uniforms and PPE—those kinds of issues—and where resources are acquired are major issues. It is the same for members of the public, who will share some of those concerns. The Bill prevents us from acting on those where there is a potential for political or moral disapproval of the policy or conduct of a public authority in a foreign state. It is extremely far reaching and will infringe on quite a lot of our work.

Q Thank you. Roz, do you have anything to add to that?

Rozanne Foyer:

Trade unions have been using these policies, as I said, for quite some time in a range of situations. I think that we would want to be able to continue to operate in that way. It is an important part of our democracy that our members and citizens are able to influence public bodies and elected officials at all sorts of levels. It is very important. One of the things for which trade union members in Scotland campaigned for a long time was a Scottish Parliament, and another big concern for us is the way that devolution to that Parliament is being potentially undermined by this piece of legislation. That is another area where we have some key concerns about this Bill.

I apologise if the speakers have already touched on this; I did not pick up everything that was said from Scotland. Mark, you have written a very detailed paper, and I thank you for it. One of the very important points you make in that paper is the fact that public bodies in Wales and Scotland are already obliged to follow ethical practices with regard to employment, for example, and need to take into account human rights considerations. My concern is that the Government have perhaps not fully appreciated that fact. This legislation, which will apply—so they tell us—to all parts of the United Kingdom, does not take into account what already exists, and it might inadvertently cut across or undermine existing regulations. Is that your view? If it is, can you say a bit more?

Mark Beacon:

Yes, we share those concerns. Some positive work is taking place in Wales around procurement, primarily focusing on labour rights but branching out into other areas. Again, there is some positive work in Scotland and, I believe, in Northern Ireland. We are deeply concerned about the impact that the Bill will have on that work in devolved nations, particularly considering that both investment and procurement are devolved responsibilities. When we look at areas such as labour rights, which are obviously fundamental to us, and at exceptions in the schedule, they are very narrowly defined. They are primarily focused on areas around modern slavery and so forth, and there are references to the minimum wage as well, but they do not go anywhere near meeting the International Labour Organisation core conventions. Areas such as child labour, equal remuneration, the right to collective bargaining, freedom of association and so forth are not referred to at all in there, so it will undermine that work.

Rozanne Foyer:

We have a range of devolved policies in Scotland that relate to our Fair Work First approach to commissioning and contracting. We do not have devolved employment law, but we have an extensive range of guidance and benchmarks that we expect all contractors who want to get public money to adhere to. The Scottish Government also has a vision for trade that sets out fair work indicators as well. Although we cannot implement Laws, because employment law is not devolved, we fully use our right to implement and use the money as leverage. I believe that is a very legitimate way to create a landscape of better employment rights and good practice, both domestically and internationally, and that work would be severely undermined by the current proposals.

In terms of the other area I think could be really undermined, we must remember that in Scotland we have a Parliament where just over half of the representatives—the Majority of representatives—support full independence. It would be legitimate and in the public interest for citizens and members of the public to know and understand what the Scottish Government might choose to do in the context of independence if they had the power to have particular international procurement policies. It is very disturbing to me that Clause 4 of the Bill might well prevent that sort of debate or announcement from taking place. At the moment, the Scottish Government are producing a series of papers that look at the detail of what an independent Scotland might look like. The STUC does not have a policy on independence, but you can bet your bottom dollar that we are looking very closely at what the potential proposals might be and thinking about how they might impact our members. I would not like the Bill to preclude the Scottish Government from making us aware of what their intentions might be.

Q I refer to the declaration that I made this morning: I am a member of Unison, as Mark knows, and I think I am not the only one. You touched on this in answer to my colleague Wayne David’s question, but do you believe that the exceptions that this Bill allows to consider elements of human rights, labour rights and environmental misconduct would grant public bodies and their representatives enough leeway to effectively make ethical decisions?

Mark Beacon:

Absolutely not. It is phenomenally weak in terms of the exceptions. If we start with international law, there is a requirement in it that basically violates the UK’s obligations under international law rather than considering, for example, that the activity of a company might be contributing to a violation of international law, so that section is extremely weak. There is a total absence of any reference to human rights within the exceptions there, which is of deep concern, particularly as you do not have labour rights without human rights. Then, for the reasons I have mentioned, the section on labour rights is extremely weak—not meeting those ILO core conventions, which are the absolute basic minimum enabling rights for workers.

The Committee might want to look at areas around procurement and the activities of organisations like Electronics Watch, which I believe Crown Commercial Services is affiliated to, that look at areas like electronics and mining and how you can get better practice in procurement in those areas. On environmental concerns, again, we are concerned that there is that double threshold there: not only must it be environmental misconduct, but it has to violate the law as well. There are plenty of exceptions to that, such as in issues around the pollution of watercourses or around logging or deforestation, where the conduct or policy of a public authority permits that to go on.

Rozanne Foyer:

I will not say too much on this. I think that the points were very well made there. The ILO conventions missing is the most disturbing feature here for any sort of credible nod to good employment standards. The fact that they are not there is incredibly disturbing. It is not going to help us take forward environmental agendas. It is not going to help us take forward ethical or human rights agendas or labour rights agendas on an international basis. It is a travesty if we cannot use all of our public bodies to help us push that agenda forward.

This will have to be the last question as we need to conclude at 4.30 pm.

We heard in earlier evidence that when one BDS campaign against SodaStream was successful, about 500 Palestinians lost their jobs. I was just wondering whether that was the sort of outcome that you would count as positive. What proportion of your members see that as a priority from their unionQ ?

Mark Beacon:

When it comes to workers’ rights or the situation of workers within the illegal settlements, it is an area we have done substantial work on. We support and provide funding for a trade union called Ma’an, an Israeli trade union, to help them organise workers within the illegal industrial zones. It highlights phenomenal challenges there. Workers are paying extraordinary fees to labour brokers. They are being paid beneath the Israeli minimum wage. They are consistently not getting their labour rights under Israeli law. Health and safety is appalling and so forth.

We also support Kav LaOved, the workers hotline—again, an Israeli NGO—to support and educate workers and campaign for them in the illegal agricultural areas in the occupied west bank. Again, we see the same labour problems there, major health and safety problems, particularly involving people picking dates and the injuries they face, being dumped at checkpoints with injuries and so forth, and major problems with child labour.

The quality of that work is not amazing by any means, and there are major problems, but the other issue is the impact that those settlements have on the prospects of a viable—

Order. I am sorry to cut you off mid-flow, but that brings us to the end of the allotted time for the Committee to ask questions. On the Committee’s behalf, I thank all our witnesses today, particularly the last two, for all their evidence.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Jacob Young.)

Adjourned till Thursday 7 September at half-past Eleven o’clock.

EAPBB01 UK Lawyers for Israel (UKLFI)

EAPBB02 We Believe in Israel

EAPBB03 Amnesty International UK

EAPBB04 Ethical Consumer Research Association (ECRA)

EAPBB05 Universities UK (UUK)

EAPBB06 Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association (PLSA)

EAPBB07 Anti-Slavery International

EAPBB08 City of London Corporation

EAPBB09 Balfour Project

EAPBB10 Jews for Justice for Palestinians

EAPBB11 Council for Arab-British Understanding (Caabu)

EAPBB12 Quakers in Britain

EAPBB13 Diaspora Alliance UK

EAPBB14 Liberty

EAPBB15 Northern Ireland Local Government Officers’ Superannuation Committee (NILGOSC)

EAPBB16 The Methodist Church in Britain and the United Reformed Church

EAPBB17 Labour Friends of Israel

EAPBB18 Palestine Solidarity Campaign

EAPBB19 Jewish Leadership Council

EAPBB20 Independent Jewish Voices, Jewish Network for Palestine, and Jewish Voice for Labour (joint submission)

EAPBB21 Institute of Race Relations

EAPBB22 International Centre of Justice for Palestinians

EAPBB23 Conservative Friends of Israel

EAPBB24 Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign

EAPBB25 UK Israel Business

EAPBB26 Board of Deputies of British Jews

EAPBB27 Muslim Association of Britain

EAPBB28 Corporate Justice Coalition

EAPBB29 Brunel Pension Partnership Limited and London LGPS CIV Ltd

EAPBB30 War on Want