Examination of Witnesses

Ivory Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 2:13 pm on 12 June 2018.

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Hartwig Fischer, Dr Antonia Boström and Anthony Misquitta gave evidence.

Photo of Mark Pritchard Mark Pritchard Conservative, The Wrekin 2:56, 12 June 2018

We will now hear evidence from the British Museum and the Victoria and Albert Museum. We have until 3.45 pm for this session. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves, for the record?

Dr Boström:

I am Dr Antonia Boström, director of collections at the Victoria and Albert Museum.

Hartwig Fischer:

I am Hartwig Fischer, director of the British Museum.

Anthony Misquitta:

I am Anthony Misquitta, general counsel and secretary to the board at the Victoria and Albert Museum.

Photo of Mark Pritchard Mark Pritchard Conservative, The Wrekin

Do any Members have a declaration of interest, before we start?

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q We have heard from a lot of people about the ivory trade today and the Bill, which is very narrow. For a number of years I have been advocating that, if we have the ban, which hopefully we will, some specific organisation should verify artefacts as being internationally significant. Do you feel that you are sufficiently qualified to do this job? Clearly, we will look to your organisations and perhaps some others to ensure that we are not just allowing trade in any old rubbish, but that artefacts are very significant. Do you feel sufficiently qualified to do that?

Hartwig Fischer:

I am confident that museums in Great Britain and universities have enough experts to be able to deal with these questions and to come up with very sound judgments on the aesthetic or historical cultural significance of any object.

Dr Boström:

I concur with that. We have world-renowned experts at the Victoria and Albert Museum in the history of ivory sculpture and objects.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q How would you fund that? If people came to you with their particular pieces of ivory, or ivory as part of something, how would you fund that? There would be a cost to you. Would you think of charging whoever it is that wants it?

Dr Boström:

We already have an opinions service, which is a public-facing service. Each curatorial department, on the first Tuesday of the month, has a public opinion session. We would certainly be able to offer the service through that. Whether a more robust service beyond that is needed, and what that might be, is one of the discussions that is on the table, I think.

Hartwig Fischer:

In view of the importance of what the Bill addresses, I think provision should be made for those experts to give expert advice. There is an investment of time and expertise that should be covered, because it is during working hours.

Photo of Kerry McCarthy Kerry McCarthy Labour, Bristol East

Q There are specific exemptions in clause 9 about acquisitions by qualifying museums, which you obviously are, which mean that you would be exempt from the prohibition. Could you give an example of where you might need to rely on that exemption for products that are not already covered by the exemption certificate? Am I right in my understanding that the normal prohibition is that it has got to be pre-1918, and has to have a certificate that it is of outstandingly high artistic, cultural or historical significance, but there are some exemptions if a museum is involved? What sort of product would be likely not to qualify for the exemption certificate, but be something that you would want to buy or sell?

Anthony Misquitta:

As museums, we are not in the business of selling. We are not really entitled to sell. Once an item enters the collection of a museum, that is normally it. The term we use is de-accession and we have very narrow powers to de-accede. Certainly, once it is in the collection, we are not in the market to then sell it back into private ownership. Normally—99.9% of the time, and probably more than that—when it enters a museum’s collection, that is it forever.

Anthony Misquitta:

An example could be a musical instrument with more than 20% ivory content, of which we have some. We have some that are almost 100% ivory.

Dr Boström:

Or a piece of furniture.

Anthony Misquitta:

Or potentially a piece of post-1918 art deco furniture, for example, that is of significant cultural value.

Photo of Kerry McCarthy Kerry McCarthy Labour, Bristol East

That is interesting. Thank you.

Photo of Sue Hayman Sue Hayman Shadow Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Q There is obviously talk about prescribed institutions and qualifying museums and there has also been talk of a register of exempted items. The Secretary of State will keep a list of those registered or qualifying museums and prescribed institutions. If an institution is found to have been breaking the law, how do you see that being managed within your industry? Should the Secretary of State be able to take them off the register? Should further criminal action be taken? How would the industry look at policing itself within that category?

Hartwig Fischer:

I would be very surprised if any of those institutions breached the law. We have extremely strict procedures in place for due diligence on provenance. Before any object enters our collection, it goes through many filters and is closely monitored. My understanding is that it would be exceedingly difficult for any of these institutions to do this. It is unlikely that something like this would happen inadvertently. It would be most exceptional for something like this to happen. I am very confident that these institutions are extremely conscientious when it comes to acquiring objects.

Anthony Misquitta:

There is a very strict accreditation regime for museums in this country. Accreditation is by Arts Council England. Where a museum falls foul of those very strict rules, it loses its accreditation and that is catastrophic. It loses its Government indemnity scheme, it is unable to loan to or receive loans from other museums, and its charitable status is thrown into jeopardy. There are a number of checks and balances in the accreditation regime.

I will not say that museums never break the rules, because it is a very tough climate for museums—not the likes of the museums before you, but it is a difficult period for regional museums. Sometimes they are faced with the stark option of selling an item or closing, for example. They might sell an item and run the risk of losing their accreditation, but it is not something that they would do lightly and it is devastating if they do.

It may be necessary for the Arts Council to think about adding reference to this legislation to its accreditation tests.

Photo of Sue Hayman Sue Hayman Shadow Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Q So would that be the most sensible way to go forward be to bring the legislation into the Arts Council accreditation system?

Anthony Misquitta:

I think so. I am talking off the top of my head, but that is a possible answer.

Photo of Sue Hayman Sue Hayman Shadow Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Q Would that cover galleries as well? Does the Arts Council accredit galleries? Yes, they are nodding at the back. Thank you very much.

Photo of Trudy Harrison Trudy Harrison Conservative, Copeland

Q Do you have any concerns about differences of opinion between the expert assessors in assessing whether something would be exempt or not?

Dr Boström:

According to the criteria that are set out here?

Dr Boström:

It had not occurred to me. I assumed that we all speak as one. I imagine that there would have to be a quorum.

Photo of Trudy Harrison Trudy Harrison Conservative, Copeland

Q Do you feel that the classifications are clear enough for there to be a unity of assessment?

Dr Boström:

Absolutely. I think the basis from which we all begin is as one on criteria. There might be a difference of date—1540 or 1545, for example. Some scholars like to get into the details, but I think difference would be more on that basis than on the general principles that we would abide by.

Anthony Misquitta:

The Waverley Committee decides on whether an item qualifies for an export licence. I am not aware of the extent to which they differ in their views when they consider whether to allow a licence, but I think their procedures are robust. I envisage that, whatever committee is chosen for the purposes of ivory, it would adopt a similar framework and governance to the Waverley Committee, which I understand is effective.

Dr Boström:

It is very effective in its checks and balances and decision making by committee on the advice of an expert.

Photo of Anna Turley Anna Turley Labour/Co-operative, Redcar

Q I want to draw your attention to the exemption under items of high artistic, cultural or historical value in clause 2. Do you think that definition is robust enough? As experts, are you confident that you have the criteria for that definition, given that you may be asked to give advice to the Secretary of State on passing an exemption?

Dr Boström:

Yes, I am. I believe that, as Anthony has outlined, it would be rather like the way we act as expert advisers to the export licence committee through the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, based on the expertise we have among all the national museums. These export licences are shared across museums according to the expertise in place, so it would be absolutely directed to those experts in ivory—ivory carving or musical instruments—and the expert would pronounce on that. I have no doubt that the expertise would be in place.

Hartwig Fischer:

Museums are responsible for collecting only what is really significant to deliver their mission, and we all have limited space. I think the criteria are robust and we can work with them because we have worked with them all along. It would be the ambition of any curator or museum person to get just what is really significant for the collection—that is to say for the public in the end, and for future generations to learn about the past.

Photo of Liz Twist Liz Twist Labour, Blaydon

Q I want to ask about prescribed institutions. Is clause 2(5), on the use of prescribed institutions, tight enough as a definition? If not, would you suggest anything to tighten it?

Dr Boström:

I would say that that ties in exactly with the way that the export licence procedures have prescribed institutions, experts and advisers. I imagine it would be largely along the same lines, so that seems perfectly reasonable.

Anthony Misquitta:

As Antonia has mentioned, there needs to be a degree of flexibility in the definition, because depending on the nature of the object—musical instruments would be different from furniture—a different set of experts will be required. I would therefore welcome a degree of flexibility, and some guidance—I hesitate to say further secondary legislation—from DEFRA as to how the prescribed institutions shall be constituted on a case-by-case basis would definitely be helpful.

Photo of Liz Twist Liz Twist Labour, Blaydon

To give a greater degree of clarity about what would be appropriate.

Anthony Misquitta:

I do not think we need greater clarity in the legislation, but perhaps some guidance may be helpful.

Photo of Alex Sobel Alex Sobel Labour/Co-operative, Leeds North West

Q To follow on from Trudy’s and Anna’s questions, we heard a lot from the previous panel about ivory content and the de minimis rules in terms of different items. How do you think that content level will be measured, and how will that take place?

Hartwig Fischer:

It is a numerical question, basically, because we are talking about proportions and percentages, and I assume that can be measured. Conservation departments of all museums have specialists for all materials, and I am confident that they would have the means to establish the ratio when they look at an object.

Photo of Alex Sobel Alex Sobel Labour/Co-operative, Leeds North West

Q Would the conservation experts be able to provide written evidence for that? We have not got the detail.

Dr Boström:

Yes, it will be like any object analysis report. When any object comes in as a new acquisition or there is a proposal for treatment, very detailed reports are put together and detailed empirical and scientific analysis is done of the object. A lot can be established about materials with very sophisticated microscopes and other technical things. It is material science, and that is what we do very well, as does the British Museum.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q Can you tell me what you feel the situation would be for sales to overseas museums in the future if the measure goes through? The International Council of Museums is not an accreditation body in the same way as the Arts Council scheme in the UK, so how do feel that that could be relied on to give the right information?

Anthony Misquitta:

No museum will be selling to anyone, least of all an overseas institution. Speaking for the V&A, and I have seen the British Museum’s governing statute, I do not think we have the power—I know we do not, and I do not think that the British Museum does—to sell an item to an overseas institution, so I do not think that that would ever happen.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q Does it not happen currently, or are they more loans that you give, rather than sales?

Anthony Misquitta:

They are loans. I have concerns about loans, which I would like to raise at some point, but no, once an item is in a museum, that is it.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q You would never sell anything to another museum.

Dr Boström:

In the rare cases that an object is de-accessioned, which is very rare and has so many strictures around it, it would always be through a third party. It would never be a direct sale to another museum; it would always go through an auction house or a dealer; it could never be directly to another institution.

Dr Boström:

To protect against inappropriate de-accession and sale. It is checks and balances.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q So that the public can see that you are doing it, rather than it being a private sale.

Dr Boström:

Yes.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q Right, I can understand that. Mr Misquitta, you wanted the opportunity to say something about loans.

Anthony Misquitta:

Yes. The V&A, like the British Museum, has thousands of items on loan throughout the world at any given time. We also loan in items as long and short-term loans. As the Bill is drafted, on my reading a loan is “dealing”. That means is that we can loan a work—in the United Kingdom, for example, I do not think it will be a problem because we would loan a work only to another accredited museum; we would never loan it to a private individual.

On the international stage, we often loan our works overseas. ICOM is a dominant force in the international museum world, but it is not everywhere. For example, we have a very close relationship with an institution called the Design Society in Shekou, Shenzhen, in China. We have a long-term relationship and have loaned a number of items to that institution, but it is not ICOM-registered, so we have to worry about our commitment—these items are out on a medium-term loan of a couple of years. I have an anxiety that when the Bill is enacted, suddenly we will be acting unlawfully, because overnight such loans will become unlawful. It is fixable with some transitional provisions, but that is one of the anxieties that I have.

The other anxiety concerns loans from private individuals. At any given time, we have a number of very valuable loans from individuals—amazing works, amazing individuals who lend us their works, often for decades at a time—but those are loans in from individuals who are not accredited museums. So we have a large job on our hands, which is to identify all those works, to attempt to get certificates for them and to deal with a great deal of logistics in relation to such activity—that is achievable but will involve quite a lot of work on the museums’ part. Again, some generous transitional provisions may help ease that pain.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q Surely, if you are not selling it—if you are only loaning it to someone—there should not be a problem. It is the sale of things containing or wholly made of ivory that is the problem.

Anthony Misquitta:

The terminology used in the Bill is “dealing”, and the definition of dealing includes the word “hiring”. I am sure the intention is not to capture these loans, but as it is currently drafted the Bill does capture them.

Photo of Pauline Latham Pauline Latham Conservative, Mid Derbyshire

Q I am sure that is something the Minister will look at.

Hartwig Fischer:

I would like to corroborate that. Lending is part of our key mission. We hold these collections for the public and share them as widely as possible. It is also part of our mission as national museums to project British values across the globe by engaging with other institutions by sharing knowledge and heritage. All our museums—ICOM museums included—are bound by an extremely strict code of ethics. Any museum dealing with another institution is bound to check the ethical validity of the other institution. To the best of my knowledge, all museums do that. Again, you have a number of codes and procedures in place to make sure that there is no breach. The fact that museums rank among those public institutions that enjoy the highest trust is evidence that this has worked and is reliable.

Photo of Luke Pollard Luke Pollard Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport

Q Subsection (5) of clause 9, which deals with acquisitions by qualifying museums, provides that

“‘ivory item’ means—

(a) an item made of ivory, or

(b) an item that has ivory in it, but does not include an item consisting only of unworked ivory”.

Can you help me understand how many of your collections include unworked ivory in this respect? Do you think that exemption is appropriate, or does it actually cover a much larger section of items in museum collections?

Anthony Misquitta:

I do not think we are concerned by that. As a museum of art and design, we are not interested in unworked ivory; we are interested in worked ivory.

Dr Boström:

That does not really pertain to us, no.

Anthony Misquitta:

We are not worried by that distinction, because we work only in highly crafted art and design.

Hartwig Fischer:

However, among the national museums is the Natural History Museum, which is one of the grandest and most important of its kind in the world, and it might have—it probably does—unworked ivory as part of its documentation of natural history. So yes, it is likely that our museums have only ivory that has been worked—carved, incised or what have you—but it might very well be that the Natural History Museum, in living up to its purpose and mission, has unworked ivory in its collections.

Photo of Luke Pollard Luke Pollard Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport

Q Given that we hope that the trade in ivory will come to an end and that there will be less ivory available, might there be a greater desire among museums to have pieces of unworked ivory to demonstrate a historical connection, be it good or bad, with a region, an industry or a time period?

Hartwig Fischer:

My hunch is that since 1975 there have been no purchases of unworked ivory, so I do not see any museum—any natural history museum or any museum of this kind—engaging in anything like this. These are historical holdings.

Dr Boström:

Further to that, because they are historical holdings—as in the Pitt Rivers Museum or any of the famous university museums with natural and artistic objects—I imagine that there is enough in the existing public collections, across all museums, that, should it be necessary to display or interpret unworked ivory for an educational purpose, we do not have to go anywhere else for unworked ivory.

Photo of David Rutley David Rutley Assistant Whip (HM Treasury), The Lord Commissioner of HM Treasury, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Q Thank you very much for your contributions today and to the consultation. Thank you in advance for the work you will do to make this come into effect with these very small exemptions. You have given Committee members a lot of assurance today, and you have explained your expertise and your confidence that you can use the criteria to determine the genuinely rare and most important objects. Can you help us understand better what that means, in terms of the likely volumes? On Second Reading, concerns were raised across the House about whether the regulations are tight enough. Can you help us understand what the likely volumes will be for these rare and very important items? By definition, I think we all assume that the quantities will be small, but it will be useful for you to say that, as experts, rather than for us to assume that.

Dr Boström:

Are you talking about the volume of acquisitions, or the objects that might come to us?

Photo of David Rutley David Rutley Assistant Whip (HM Treasury), The Lord Commissioner of HM Treasury, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Q You have done a lot of work to explain that museums do not get involved in a huge number of sales, and perhaps get involved in a very small number of purchases. What I was talking about—I should have been clearer—was the rare and most important items that you and institutions like you help to certify. Do you anticipate large volumes or small volumes? What volumes do you think will qualify under the definition of rare and most important?

Hartwig Fischer:

I am personally not in a position to answer that question, I am afraid, because I do not have a sufficiently deep and detailed overview of what is happening in the trade. We see from the museum side that a very small quantity of objects qualify to enter the museum. When it comes to museums and what we see generally, even following what is happening in auctions, we are talking about small quantities. We are not talking about thousands of objects. The material that is historically relevant and significant is very limited.

Dr Boström:

If one were to talk about taste in ivory carving and collecting, we always associate the working of it more with the 17th and 18th centuries, and the collectors with the end of the 19th century. It is not foremost in collecting practices or trends.

Hartwig Fischer:

It remains to be seen what will actually come up for certification. One will have to react to the volume to see how best to deal and cope with it efficiently.

Photo of Sue Hayman Sue Hayman Shadow Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Q Earlier, you were talking about resources—there is obviously a certain amount of work that comes with this. You are clearly very large institutions, and you have a broad range of specialists and experts within your museums. What might the impact be on smaller museums that do not have such access to specialists? Will there be a cost implication for them?

Dr Boström:

I imagine that, in parallel with the export licensing, even if objects were to come to a small museum or be associated with it, it will be devolved back to the major national museums—where many of the experts reside, because of a reduction of curatorial staff in our regional museums—to help them, in the way we do in other cases.

Hartwig Fischer:

We have wide-ranging national partnership programmes in place. We work with 150 small and bigger institutions across the country. There is a well-established network of exchange, skill sharing and trust. We are confident that we will find a solution. We are engaged in helping museums that do not have the expertise to cope with these questions.

Photo of Mark Pritchard Mark Pritchard Conservative, The Wrekin

If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence today.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.—(Mims Davies.)

Adjourned till Thursday 14 June at half-past Eleven o’clock.

Written evidence reported to the House

IVB01 Rosemary Lunn

IVB02 Catherine Harris

IVB03 David Shepherd Wildlife Foundation

IVB04 Mr John Henry James Lewis

IVB05 Joint submission from NGOs comprising: the Environmental Investigation Agency, Born Free Foundation, David Shepherd Wildlife Foundation, Stop Ivory, Tusk Trust and the Wildlife Conservation Society

IVB06 Animal Defenders International