Examination of Witnesses

Children and Families Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 12:00 pm on 7 March 2013.

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Kathy Jones and Michael Mealing gave evidence.

Photo of Dai Havard Dai Havard Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney 2:46, 7 March 2013

Good afternoon. I notice that you have been sitting at the back of the room, so you have seen how our proceedings work, you know what to expect, and you know where the clocks are. Thank you for coming and participating.

Q 270

Photo of Lisa Nandy Lisa Nandy Labour, Wigan

Thank you both very much for coming and giving evidence to us. We have just had a session in which we talked quite a bit about the situation of fathers. There is broad consensus across the Committee, and from the witnesses, that fathers would like to spend more time with their children. Does the Bill deliver the sort of cultural change that we were promised, and if not, what needs to be added to the Bill to make that happen?

Kathy Jones: The Bill delivers what is promised to a certain proportion of mothers and fathers, but it excludes about 50% of mothers and fathers, who will not fulfil the criteria to take leave. That is disappointing for us. The consultation document on modern workplaces had some very promising ideas about flexible working and share of leave that have been diminished in the process of putting together the Bill.

Q 271

Photo of Lisa Nandy Lisa Nandy Labour, Wigan

Could you expand on the proportion of mothers and fathers who will not fulfil the criteria? Who are those people, and what will the implications be of them being excluded?

Kathy Jones: Those are the people who will not have been in work for long enough to fulfil the criteria to take leave. That is about 50% of mother and fathers.

Q 272

Photo of Lisa Nandy Lisa Nandy Labour, Wigan

Does your organisation have concerns about antenatal appointments? I asked about them in the previous session; I do not know if you heard. One feature of antenatal appointments—this is linked to some of the groups that you mentioned—is that the right to time off for antenatal appointments is a right to unpaid time off. Will that prevent lower-paid families from taking up the provision?

Kathy Jones: Very much so. Lower-paid families are vulnerable when it comes to all these things, so there is an issue about the fact that the time off is not paid. There is also an issue about the right to request, and therefore the right to refuse. A further issue would be amending the Bill so that people can request a reasonable amount of time off, rather than a stipulated six hours.

Q 273

Photo of Lisa Nandy Lisa Nandy Labour, Wigan

Michael, can I ask you something on that point in particular?

Michael Mealing: On the point of reasonable time?

Photo of Lisa Nandy Lisa Nandy Labour, Wigan

Yes. What is the view of the federation on that?

Michael Mealing: I should emphasise that I am giving evidence this afternoon on behalf of small business; legislation frequently does not differentiate between large and small businesses, but our view is that within the small business community, conditions are very different. We certainly believe that the majority of our members, and small businesses in the wider world, are reasonable, but if one is to have a regulated framework, it is often sensible to postulate maximums or minimums. I do not think that we would have a strong view; members would have varying views on that point.

Q 274

Photo of Lisa Nandy Lisa Nandy Labour, Wigan

That is really helpful, thank you. With the Chair’s permission, I will ask one more question. Kathy, in the submission that we received from the Fatherhood Institute, the point was made that the UK is possibly in breach of equalities legislation in Europe. The briefing did not go into detail, so can you say more about that, in relation to the amount of maternity and paternity leave that we currently have?

Kathy Jones: Yes. I think that European legislation is likely to argue that the way that maternity and paternity leave are divided places an unfair burden of care on the mother’s shoulders.

Q 275

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

May I ask Ms Jones about the evidence about the father’s role, and the effect of keen participation by a father on children’s life chances, as against the outcomes for children who do not have the input of both parents?

Kathy Jones: Children do exceptionally well when their fathers are engaged with them early on, particularly educationally. Having fathers who are involved in their care and are committed to their education and learning is a predictor of long-term success for children in all sorts of ways: emotional success; quality of future relationships; and educational attainment. That early opportunity for a strong attachment between fathers and their children is crucial to getting this Bill right. Fathers who are attached early to their children are less likely to separate. We know how much separation costs the state and families in this country. Nearly one in two families separate. Fathers have a crucial role to play; most mothers know that as well as the fathers.

Q 276

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

Of course, sometimes separation and family breakdown happens. Where it does, what is your approach to clause 11, which makes provision for parental involvement? Do you welcome the provision that after separation the child should have access to both parents?

Kathy Jones: Absolutely. Of course we do. Again, where we build in that early support, whereby fathers are engaged early, are present at the birth and are involved, and take parental leave, separation is less likely to happen. If it does happen—in Sweden, for example, fathers have access to a good amount of paternity leave, so when separation does occur, there is far more ongoing contact between fathers and their children, because that attachment has taken place.

Q 277

Photo of Charlie Elphicke Charlie Elphicke Conservative, Dover

Mr Mealing, on the provisions on flexible leave, and what you would probably see as business costs in relation to maternity and paternity  provision, how do you weigh the improvement you might get in staff retention against the business cost of the kind of provisions that we are discussing?

Michael Mealing: I think the best approach to that rather difficult equation is in current practice. Certainly the majority of the small businesses already look at flexible working as a business asset. Our organisation commissioned some research by the Westminster Business School last year, which demonstrated how flexibly small employers tend to behave. The Chancellor of the Exchequer recently quoted from that report: nine out of 10 new jobs have been generated for people in disadvantaged situations by small business. We see a picture whereby flexibility, where it is practical within a business, is obviously the right way to go. One sees more and more imaginative patterns of work developing all the time.

Q 278

Photo of Lucy Powell Lucy Powell Labour, Manchester Central

Kathy, I will come to you first. Have you done any of your own research on the likely take-up of the parental leave offer for fathers under the terms outlined in the Bill? I think the Government estimate that it is between 2% and 8% of eligible fathers. Would you concur with that figure?

Kathy Jones: Yes, that is in line with what we would expect. It would be closer to 2% than to 8%.

Q 279

Kathy Jones: Yes, partly because of the number of fathers who are excluded from uptake, as they do not fulfil the primary conditions. Sarah Jackson talked about the importance of campaigning, communicating to people what the offer is, and helping them to think about how to use this offer in a way that is helpful. That will be really important.

Q 280

Photo of Lucy Powell Lucy Powell Labour, Manchester Central

How big a factor is pay in this context?

Kathy Jones: We think it is huge. Again, for poorer families, low-income families, and more vulnerable families, it is a huge issue at this point in a very austere climate.

Q 281

Photo of Lucy Powell Lucy Powell Labour, Manchester Central

Have you got any suggestions about how that might be overcome? Obviously, we are not in a scenario where there is lots of money—in fact, far from it. How might we be able to look at some creative ways to support fathers in doing that?

Kathy Jones: In the long term? Remuneration—that is our aspiration in the longer-term, as the economy improves. In the short term, the idea that was in “Modern Workplaces” about mothers and fathers being able to return to work part-time, and to do that flexibly so they can box and cox, will mean that both fathers and mothers can spend part of the week earning, and part of the week at home, perhaps in receipt of some pay. That is a perfect model. It is not present in the current Bill, but we think that is a good solution.

Q 282

Photo of Lucy Powell Lucy Powell Labour, Manchester Central

Michael, what is your view? We heard in a previous session a suggestion from business—possibly even more from small business—about the opportunity for returning parents to share their statutory maternity pay with some part-time work, so there is a phased integration back into work. What is the view of your members?

Michael Mealing: Broadly speaking, the idea of shared maternity and paternity leave is welcomed by our members. We feel it will help transparency, because there is always a problem with how honest people are about what they intend to do. It will hopefully provide a simpler way of organising this type of absence from work. In terms of whether the Bill will have a cultural impact, our view is that other things, such as the availability of affordable child care, will have much more effect.

Q 283

Photo of Andy Sawford Andy Sawford Labour, Corby

I want to ask a little more about the people you feel will be helped by the measures in the Bill, and those who will not. Could you describe that to us, in terms of the types of people? I have been looking at your briefing. Could you suggest any specific amendments that could help to extend this measure to improve the lives of more parents? That question is to Kathy, in particular.

Kathy Jones: Having a right to care that is based on the individual work records of mothers and fathers is our ideal, rather than the father’s entitlement being dependent on the mother’s work record. That should increase the number of fathers who can access paternity leave.

Q 284

Photo of Andy Sawford Andy Sawford Labour, Corby

Have you got any figures or research on how many more?

Kathy Jones: I have not got figures, but I will come back to you.

Q 285

Photo of Andy Sawford Andy Sawford Labour, Corby

I would be interested to know how many more fathers would be included because of that.

Kathy Jones: Many more. We expect the figure to be significantly higher, because so many are excluded by the criteria being dependent on the mother’s work record. But I will come back to you.

Q 286

Photo of Andy Sawford Andy Sawford Labour, Corby

Kathy, what is your view on the way clause 88 leaves it to the birth mother or the primary adopter to decide whether to share the parental leave? Should fathers have more of a say and more ability to influence whether they are able to take some of the shared parental leave?

Kathy Jones: Of course they should. What we know is that most couples are involved in these private negotiations all the time. There is no strange battle between men and women. Some 93% of couples live together or are cohabiting when a baby is born, 86% of fathers are present at the birth, and most mothers and fathers want the engagement of both parents. In countries where there is the opportunity to make choices about who earns and who cares, couples do that very effectively without the state intervening. We know that most mothers return to work by about 18 weeks, so the breast feeding issue is not highly pertinent. So yes, absolutely we do, and we know that most mothers will want and support that.

Q 287

Photo of Andy Sawford Andy Sawford Labour, Corby

Finally, you described something that I as a parent understand—as will all other parents here—is a private negotiation between parents about parental responsibilities, paternity leave and other arrangements. That takes place in other countries. Is it  specified in law in other countries? Why would that be necessary? What could specifying in law that a father has a greater say achieve, or is it unnecessary?

Kathy Jones: That is a very good question. One of the things that we could specify in law is a daddy quota, a “daddy month”. In some countries, that is used very effectively. That was referred to in the “Modern Workplaces” consultation document. Often, that really gives impetus to fathers to take up that leave, and to be able to take it at any point during the first 50 weeks or so feels very important, so fathers can take that time. One of my colleagues talked about the importance of fathers having that exclusive time alone with their children, when they can bond and engage and when the mother has returned to work. In countries where there is a daddy quota, that has been very effective, particularly if we say, “Use it or lose it.”

Q 288

Photo of Andy Sawford Andy Sawford Labour, Corby

On the daddy quota, you describe the provisions in this Bill as a compromise. You clearly contrast what you saw as a very welcome document, the “Modern Workplaces” consultation document, with provisions in this Bill. If we were to try to improve this Bill during the coming weeks, what specifically would you think from the recommendations in the “Modern Workplaces” consultation would make the most difference?

Kathy Jones: The daddy quota.

Q 289

Photo of Andy Sawford Andy Sawford Labour, Corby

Specifically the daddy quota?

Kathy Jones: Specifically the daddy quota, but I think the other thing is talking to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and getting HMRC to think about the implications of this, because I understand that it has really blocked the possibility of mothers and fathers having an individual—I am not explaining this very well—the possibility of mothers and fathers’ individual work records being taken into account when they apply for paternity and maternity leave. That would be a big one, and it was well expressed in the “Modern Workplaces” document.

Photo of Dai Havard Dai Havard Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney

Just for the purposes of the record, I have agreed to the distribution to the Committee of the extended right to request flexible working code of practice. That is information on a subject that was discussed a little earlier, so that people have some of the information that they were requesting earlier, and we will take all the necessary detail later.

Q 290

Photo of Jo Swinson Jo Swinson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

We had a discussion with the earlier witnesses about the culture and it would be helpful for us to understand, from the perspective of both of you, first, what are some of the barriers that dads might face in the workplace in taking additional paternity leave under the existing system, and what the barriers might be under the new system and how they might be overcome? Secondly, it would be helpful to hear an employer’s perspective about the cultural constraints that workplaces might have within them, and how they can be overcome.

Michael Mealing: As far as culture is concerned, as I say small business culture is very different. In fact, small business culture is much more akin to a family situation  than the culture in larger organisations and in the public sector. Of the 200,000 members of the Federation of Small Businesses, perhaps 150,000 or so actually employ people and the average number of people that they employ is seven. So you are looking at very small groups of people with very close personal relationships; employees see the owner-manager, or a decision maker, every day. That has led automatically to it being much easier for small businesses to take account of personal and family situations, and I think that we do it very successfully.

We do not feel that legislation—statutory rights—is necessarily the best way of achieving cultural change, and I may wish to add to that comment at a later date. As I say, however, our view is that the culture of the work force is changing, and successful businesses will need to accommodate that change. As someone said earlier, I think that legislation can often follow behind but when it tries to lead it is not always successful and you can have unexpected consequences.

Q 291

Kathy Jones: I think the most successful businesses respond flexibly to the needs of both fathers and mothers. Some of the businesses that we have been involved with, such as British Telecom and Ford, have some really good policies that support people’s right to family life. One of the things we know from our research is that when fathers have a new baby they are highly likely to leave their job in order to find a better working arrangement so that they can provide better care, but very often that is not articulated in an exit interview, so there are lots of hidden things about fathers in the workplace where these issues are not discussed openly, but talked about within the family. That is one of the things we can send you some research about. We know that businesses do well when fathers and mothers are able to be involved in the care of their children.

Q 292

Photo of Jo Swinson Jo Swinson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

If, as you say, at the moment they are not even able, when leaving an organisation, to say that this is one of the reasons why, that points to quite a cultural barrier in terms of dads in the workplace being able to talk about the flexibility they might need. Presumably, that is partly as a result of the reaction that they expect to receive, either from their employers or from co-workers. Other than through legislation, how can that be tackled?

Kathy Jones: Again, we go back to communication and back to a campaign. Sarah has said that we need this message to come out from the very top of Government that fathers should be involved in the lives of their children, that businesses should be flexible about that and that it is good for our economy. Economies do well when they are responsive to the needs of families to be involved in the work force and as care.

Q 293

Photo of Jo Swinson Jo Swinson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Michael, what effect will these changes have on the retention of talent in the workplace for your members?

Michael Mealing: We are broadly supportive of shared parental leave. As far as we can see, we have everything to gain from the maximum degree of flexibility and transparency. Our concern really is just the simplicity of the arrangements and whether they impose an  administrative cost, particularly on small businesses. There has been plenty of research to show that these changes impose greater costs on a small business because they do not have specialist departments. Many small businesses run their payroll manually, and it is the entrepreneur or his wife who does it on a weekend if that is the arrangement. We can certainly look forward with some enthusiasm to the greater simplicity and transparency. As I say, we do have concerns about the practicality and the nuts and bolts of how they should work, particularly if a failure to agree a particular pattern of shared leave can lead to an employment tribunal situation. That would be very regrettable indeed, and I argue it should not possibly happen.

Q 294

Photo of Jo Swinson Jo Swinson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Following on from that, as a final question that I was keen to put to you, what is most important for business? As you will know, we have a consultation at the moment on the administration of shared parental leave. I am sure that the FSB will submit a formal response to that. What do you think are the most important things that are needed to get that right, to make these policy changes work for business so that they have the support of the business community, rather than them ending up being perceived as an extra burden?

Michael Mealing: One thing that would be particularly difficult for a small business would be a requirement for small businesses to liaise with each other if the parents work for different organisations. We are not unaware that if it is entirely employee driven, there may be issues about eligibility, but again it is something that an individual employer, particularly a small one, cannot be expected to police. Other than that, a simple arrangement is based on dialogue and adequate notice. I should make the point that in all sorts of situations, ignoring the fact that employees in small businesses have the opportunity to discuss with their employers at the moment any change in arrangements which is desirable from a family point of view, it is just imposing a rigid statutory framework that can cause a problem. Certainly, if one looks at, for example, a business with three or four employees, for the employer to allow parents to take shared leave concurrently is obviously totally impracticable. Situations such as that need to be resolved in a straightforward fashion.

Photo of Dai Havard Dai Havard Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney

Thank you very much. With your efficiency and a bit of discipline on our side, we have managed to win ourselves a bit of time. Thank you very much for your contribution. I believe our next witnesses are present. We will move onto them and finish completely at 4 o’clock, because we know we have a vote. That way we will hopefully have a consistent discussion without interruption. Thank you very much for your help. Could we have the next set of witnesses, please?