Clause 120

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 2:45 pm on 10 February 2011.

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Photo of Julian Huppert Julian Huppert Liberal Democrat, Cambridge 2:45, 10 February 2011

I beg to move amendment 577, in clause 120, page 82, leave out lines 23 to 33.

Photo of Joe Benton Joe Benton Labour, Bootle

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 578, in clause 120, page 83, leave out lines 21 to 32.

Photo of Julian Huppert Julian Huppert Liberal Democrat, Cambridge

We have had a number of discussions in Committee about how much should be specified in the Bill and how much should be left free for local determination. My colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West and I have argued a localist line on several occasions.

We are seeking to amend the provisions specifying exactly how receipts should be produced. I would be grateful if the Minister explained how that fits in with the general tenor of not over-specifying, which we have seen elsewhere. From talking to colleagues in local government, it is clear that receipts are frequently provided—I do not know if they would be asked for, but a council would certainly provide one as required. I am therefore surprised to see such provisions in the Bill, because they seem rather over-prescriptive. I wondered  whether they were left over from some new Labour legislation and copied in, because that is where I have tended to see such provisions.

Photo of Diana R. Johnson Diana R. Johnson Shadow Minister (Home Affairs)

We welcome the proposal for licensing authorities to gain an important new power to suspend licences when annual fees are not paid. It will obviously help councils to recover money owing and to tackle the minority of rogue businesses that do not comply, but the Bill mandates the issuing of a receipt for payment of the annual fee when a premises holder pays the fee after the licence has been suspended.

The hon. Member for Cambridge, who needs to take ownership of coalition Government legislation, makes a valid point. The Bill sets out a specific format and time scale for receipts to be issued. It is prescriptive and does not reflect other fee-paying regimes. Many councils already issue receipts or will do so, if requested, so it could be a matter of good practice only. We do not see why it needs to be laid out in primary legislation. At most, it should be a matter for guidance, although even that could be deemed an unnecessary and costly prescription from central Government, and we know that the coalition is keen not to do that.

Given the Government’s desire to reduce regulatory burdens, the clause is clearly an example of an unnecessary and costly provision. An increase in administration costs would occur as a result of the mandatory receipts regime, and the Minister should look at it again. Indeed, given that his coalition partner is sitting alongside him, he might have sympathy with the amendments.

Photo of James Brokenshire James Brokenshire Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office)

Before the hon. Lady gets too carried away with herself about the clause, I have the sense that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge might have raised the issue in the mistaken belief that the requirement to provide a receipt will apply to all payments of annual fees, whereas it applies only in certain specific and limited circumstances. I recognise that the amendments have been tabled with the legitimate aim of limiting excessive bureaucracy. However, there is good reason to require the licensing authority to carry out the modest step of providing a receipt.

I wish to make matters clear. The clause provides for a receipt to be given to a licence or certificate holder only when that licence or certificate has been suspended. The receipt provides clarity about whether and when the licence has been reinstated, and the licence holder can therefore recommence licensable activities. It is important that there is clarity because carrying out licensable activities without a licence is a serious offence, with a maximum penalty on summary conviction of six months’ imprisonment or a fine of up to £20,000, or both. I do not believe that provision of a receipt in such limited circumstances will be a significant burden. We expect the sanction of suspension to ensure that the majority of the fees are paid on time. Additionally, not all the licences that are suspended will be reinstated.

The clause is not excessively complex or prescriptive. It is reasonable to expect an acknowledgment of receipt to confirm the date on which the outstanding fee was received. That is vital because that is the day from which the licence holder can recommence licensable activities. Similarly, the stipulations on time scale might seem complex, but they serve merely to ensure that the licensing authority has at least one full working day to provide the receipt. With that explanation, I hope that my hon. Friend will be minded to withdraw the amendment.

Photo of Julian Huppert Julian Huppert Liberal Democrat, Cambridge

I thank the Minister for his clarification. I apologise for not having spotted such matters in the text. I am still struggling to interpret the text to fit with what he says, but I am sure that he is accurate and that changes my perspective. I should have had more faith in his localising and deregulatory instincts, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 120 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Photo of Clive Efford Clive Efford Labour, Eltham

On a point of order, Mr Benton. Can you give me some guidance regarding some items which were going to be discussed at a future date in Committee?

Photo of Joe Benton Joe Benton Labour, Bootle

The question before the Committee was that clause 120 stand part of the Bill.

Photo of Clive Efford Clive Efford Labour, Eltham

On a point of order, Mr Benton. We will be debating clauses relating to the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. The evidence that has been presented to the Committee refers to a protocol between the Government and the ACMD. That is a public agreement, which is to be placed in the Library. Today is probably the last day that we can table amendments to that section of the Bill, given that we are approaching the last two days of proceedings. I have just checked with the Library and the protocol is not there. That makes it very difficult for the Opposition to determine whether they are satisfied with those arrangements and whether any amendments need to be tabled in time for that to be debated. Can we have some guidance on whether extra time can be given to table amendments? I asked the Library to look closely and, as far as they were concerned, they did not have the document. The Committee Clerk is not aware of the protocol being agreed. I wonder where it is.

Photo of Joe Benton Joe Benton Labour, Bootle

I do not think that the Chair can be of much help to the hon. Gentleman. If the Minister has any comment to make, I am prepared to listen to it.

Photo of James Brokenshire James Brokenshire Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Home Office)

Further to that point of order, Mr Benton. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this issue, because there was a full meeting of the ACMD on Monday, when the protocol was discussed. We thought it appropriate to receive comments and input. There is still some discussion on the protocol. We want to ensure that it is presented to the Committee as soon as possible. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s points about the Committee having as much notice as possible. We are working to do that. In the light of the  ACMD’s meeting—the first opportunity all council members had to consider the draft protocol—we think it fair to table the draft protocol once it has been properly considered by the ACMD and its feedback has been fed in. It is not intended to be any discourtesy to the Committee, but it has helped inform us in finalising the draft.

Photo of Clive Efford Clive Efford Labour, Eltham

Further to that point of order, Mr Benton. I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. It is just unfortunate that the protocol did not meet the time scale that he set out in his letter to the ACMD, which was that it should be published in time for them to give evidence to the Committee earlier in the proceedings. We may need to return to the issue at a later stage.

Clauses 121 and 122 ordered to stand part of the Bill.