I suppose that the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey should know about having more than one job, because not only is he trying to shadow the Department that it is possible for 40 per cent. of all Government spending, but he is also chief of staff to his new party leader. Clearly, he is a renaissance man. However, I do not agree with him. I do not agree with the TUC, either, which was wrong to throw its toys out of the pram when this proposal surfaced. We Conservatives were quick to support the Government on this matter, but we said, in other ways, that they should be going further and faster.

The TUC needs to take a trip to Holland, because the unions there are closely involved in running the big sectoral defined benefit schemes and are totally on the same page as employers’ organisations on how such things are run and on having flexibility built in. People like those at the TUC need to get on board with the idea that it is about having a choice between having a Rolls-Royce pension and, perhaps, a Jaguar or even a Volvo one, if that is their tipple. However, if people insist on a Rolls-Royce pension, they may have no such scheme at all and may end up with an employer reverting to a simple defined contribution scheme or, when the day dawns, pointing his employees towards the personal accounts with their 3 per cent. employer contributions. So there are some real dangers of people, such as those in the TUC, overplaying their hand. All credit to Ministers for at least coming up with this brand of risk sharing and flexibility.

I commend the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey for picking a quote out of the Lewin and Sweeney report that sounded clear-cut and black and white on the issue, but it seems to me that the more relevant quote from their report is this:

“Once again, we find good arguments on either side of this question.”

That is very much in the mode in which they discuss almost everything in the report. I do not criticise them, in that they were coming at the issue from different  directions. They are both experienced men with a lot of expertise, but they simply could not agree on some of the fundamental issues.