Clause 16

Further Education and Training Bill [Lords] – in a Public Bill Committee at 12:45 pm on 12th June 2007.

Alert me about debates like this

Publication of proposals

Photo of John Hayes John Hayes Shadow Minister (14-19 Reform and Apprenticeships)

I beg to move amendment No. 29, in clause 16, page 11, line 4, leave out subsection (2).

Photo of Peter Atkinson Peter Atkinson Conservative, Hexham

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:

No. 19, in clause 16, page 11, line 10, leave out ‘and (2A)’ and insert ‘(2A) and (2B)’.

No. 20, in clause 16, page 11, line 16, at end insert—

‘(2B) The third requirement is that the council—

(a) has regard to any representation from a local authority which has children’s services and education responsibilities in the area in which the establishment or dissolution of a further education corporation is proposed, and

(b) provides such an authority with written reasons for any decision to establish or dissolve a corporation.’.

No. 36, in clause 16, page 11, line 16, at end insert—

‘(2B) The third requirement is that, when the council is  considering proposals to establish or dissolve furthereducation corporations, it must abide by guidance as set outin subsection (2C).

(2C) The council must, after considering representations, publish a policy statement which must include reference to—

(a) the preferred structure of provision of post-16 education;

(b) the need to ensure a choice of qualifications and courses at all levels;

(c) the impact of any new provision of post-16 education on existing providers of post-16 education;

(d) the procedure to be followed when two or more further education corporations are seeking to merge.’.

Photo of John Hayes John Hayes Shadow Minister (14-19 Reform and Apprenticeships)

This, in a sense, is more of the same, because with clause 16 we are in the business of empowering the Learning and Skills Council and qualifying those powers. Much of this part of the Bill, as I said at the beginning of the sitting, is about changing structure and competence with respect to the Learning and Skills Council. It is important that accountability should be retained, that the circumstances in which the competencies are exercised should be, as the Minister said, transparent and, therefore, well understood by all concerned and that there should be appropriate sets of safeguards to ensure that perverse or unreasonable decisions can be challenged from the bottom up.

My anxiety about this part of the Bill—although the Minister has been reassuring about previous clauses—is that that transparency may not be all that it should be and that the lines of accountability will become more blurred. The amendment is intended to probe in that respect. The clause would make modifications to the 1992 Act, reflecting the transfer of powers to establish and dissolve further education corporations, and we have concerns about that.

We look to a halcyon age of FE colleges. I am disappointed that my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry has had briefly to leave the Committee, as he has already made a telling contribution to our considerations. He was one of those hon. Members who were pivotal in establishing that halcyon age of incorporation. Many college representatives tell me that they look back to those golden days, post-incorporation, when the FEFC provided light-touch regulation, affording them a degree of freedom to innovate and excel. College principals to some degree feel that much, or at least some, of that has been lost since, with an altogether more bureaucratic structure surrounding them, and an unhelpful level of micro-management.

Photo of Austin Mitchell Austin Mitchell Labour, Great Grimsby

All this talk about a halcyon age under the Tories is bringing tears to my eyes. Does the hon. Gentleman agree, as an avid reader of Private Eye’s higher education supplements, that that halcyon age of freedom also led to problems? Companies were established and failed; relationships were established with Singapore, Malaysia and elsewhere—there was scandalous extortion; and there were various financial problems accruing from the power given to principals to run colleges’ financial affairs in theirown way.

Photo of John Hayes John Hayes Shadow Minister (14-19 Reform and Apprenticeships)

I shall break a habit, Mr. Atkinson, because I generally do not repeat private conversations in Committee or on the Floor of the House but I must reveal to you that the hon. Member for Brent, East and I had a conversation before the Committee began. She implored me not to speak at too great length or indeed—

Photo of John Hayes John Hayes Shadow Minister (14-19 Reform and Apprenticeships)

Members across the Committee begged me to take no notice of the hon. Lady. They told me that I should not restrain myself and that within the very strict guidance of a diligent Chairman, I should feel free to range widely because they enjoy my casting pearls before them, but I owe an obligation to her—I know that she has a busy social diary and I do not want to keep her from it.

Photo of Austin Mitchell Austin Mitchell Labour, Great Grimsby

If the hon. Gentleman is casting pearls, what are we?

Photo of John Hayes John Hayes Shadow Minister (14-19 Reform and Apprenticeships)

The hon. Gentleman has rightly drawn attention to the price of freedom. In a world which is frail and faulted, as we have fallen from the state of grace, the price of liberty is that sometimes there are imperfections in the way in which individuals and organisations operate. If the choice is between the risk of that kind of imperfection and a system which is so strangled by bureaucracy and so micro-managed from the centre that every opportunity for any kind of imaginative exercise of the very substantial talents that lie in the FE sector is limited, I will go with the risk of imperfection. I would rather that than see people constrained; strangled and suffocated by bureaucracy, over-regulation and control freakery. I know the hon. Gentleman would no more want to see that than Opposition Members would. I happily give way to the Minister, as we are running into lunch.

Photo of Bill Rammell Bill Rammell Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. In terms of the pearls of wisdom he is positing before the Committee, I have to place on the record that in the last two years I have not met one further education college principal who has told me that we should return to the halcyon days of the Further Education Funding Council. If, however, in my extensive conversations with numerous FE principals round the country I have missed somebody, perhaps the hon. Gentleman could tell us which individual said that we should return to that structure.

Photo of John Hayes John Hayes Shadow Minister (14-19 Reform and Apprenticeships)

I have already revealed one small element of our private discourse, and I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive me, but now I shall reveal something more. I hope that in the course of the time that I do my job—I shadow half of one Minister and the whole of another, so I am doing one and a half jobs—the Opposition can lay out a plan for how we might move to a system where colleges were self-regulated to a much greater degree.

I am not saying anything very controversial. That was the recommendation of the Government’s own report, the Foster report. Sir Andrew Foster said that colleges should move to self-regulation by degree. He  lamented the fact that there are 17 bodies with a supervisory, inspection or regulatory role in respect of FE colleges. We will happily put forward plans during what I hope will be our short period in opposition, which is becoming shorter by the day, that will provide the opportunity, when we enter government, to move to circumstances where colleges can enjoy a much greater degree of freedom because that freedom will allow them to innovate and excel.

Photo of Peter Atkinson Peter Atkinson Conservative, Hexham

Order. Before the Minister replies, may I remind the Committee that we started off discussing the dissolution or the establishment of further education corporations? We seem to be talking on a rather wider level than was perhaps justified by the amendments.

Photo of Bill Rammell Bill Rammell Minister of State (Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education), Department for Education and Skills

Very briefly, Mr. Atkinson, I take your guidance, but an important point has been raised. I also want to ensure that we do not get on to clause 17 before this afternoon. The hon. Gentleman has talked about the importance of self-regulation, and I agree with him. Is he not aware of the body of workand the working party that we have established under Sir George Sweeney’s chairmanship? It is taking forward that agenda on self-regulation.

Photo of John Hayes John Hayes Shadow Minister (14-19 Reform and Apprenticeships)

The Minister says that the Government are advancing self-regulation and, to draw attention to the specifics of this amendment, it is critically important that we are bold and brave about taking the necessary steps to ensure the kind of freedoms that I have described. It is not appropriate to maintain the level of bureaucracy. The Government have abolished one body and added another with a role in managing, regulating or controlling FE colleges during the hon. Gentleman’s tenure. I am not sure that shows the kind of determination that I want to see in respect of the Foster recommendations.

We need to be much bolder and braver about allowing for a system which is diverse, subject to much greater levels of local accountability and is less directly managed from the centre. If one follows through the combination of Leitch and Foster and moves to a demand-driven system with a heavy emphasis on local economic activity and need, with deregulated colleges we could have a system in which colleges were responsive and imaginative in the kind of partnerships that they form to deliver the skills agenda, to which this side of the Committee is committed and which the Government are grudgingly and hesitatingly following us towards.

It being One o’clock, The Chairman, adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned till this day at Four o’clock.