Part of the debate – in a Public Bill Committee at 9:25 am on 20 January 2005.
David Wilshire
Assistant Chief Whip, Whips
9:25,
20 January 2005
I, too, welcome you to the Chair of the Committee, Mr. Hughes. It will be a pleasure, and I hope that it will be fun for you too. I will save time by not making a point of order, as I usually do because I got my knuckles severely rapped by the Chair a long time ago for taking my jacket off without asking for permission. So, when you call a vote, if you say whether you are prepared to tolerate the sight of Wilshire in his shirt sleeves, I will be eternally grateful. [Interruption.] My ties crop up regularly in debate. The reason for this tie is that yesterday certain members of the Labour party told me that they did not believe that I had such an awful tie as the one that I was wearing, so I found this one, which is, I think, even worse.
At the outset, Mr. Hughes, I also ask whether you will accept a general apology from me. There is a sense of deja vu about our proceedings. On Tuesday, we were talking about railways, and on Thursday we are talking about road safety. So, if I start talking about the railways, point out that I am out of order, but forgive me, because I have not got my mind round this job yet. I hope that there will not be a third subject.
Some people have heard me say that the Opposition are opposed to the motion in principle. The unfortunate thing for those who have heard me talk about the subject before is that some members of the Committee have not done so. It is therefore necessary to put on the record why the Government are being undemocratic—wearing their jackboots and stamping all over the democracy of the United Kingdom. I believe that the matter is serious. Every time that they ask us to approve a programme motion, the Government are saying that they could not care less about the quality of legislation or about providing a reasonable voice for those who disagree, but want their legislation by a set date come hell or high water. We can say or do what we like, but they will have their legislation even if it has not been discussed properly. In my book, that is not democracy. That is why we will always oppose such motions in principle.
In the time that I have been a Whip on Bills, many have run into the sand. It is possible that we will. Although there were 39 sittings of one Committee, we considered less than half the clauses. Some people say, ''Well, if there is no timetable, the Opposition will take advantage of the situation.'' It takes one to know one; I remember sitting in this very Room as a member of the Standing Committee considering the community charge legislation. We were here for about four months, not because of anything that I and Government Back Benchers said but because of the endless ramblings of the then Opposition, which, as they were not ruled out of order, were just about in order. I assume that the great worry that the Government have when introducing programme motions is that we might behave as they used to. Perhaps they are criticising themselves rather than us.
It seems to me that the important thing to consider about the programme motion, which was the argument that the Government used when suggesting to me the number of sittings that we ought to have for the Bill, is whether the time will be sufficient. I will return to the point that the Minister made in a minute. If one adds up the number of hours made available, then, working on the assumption that we finish at about 5 o'clock—that may not be the case, I know—we are likely to sit for about 25 hours. When I first came to the House, there was a convention that a guillotine could not be asked for in Standing Committee until the Committee had been sitting for about 100 hours. That gives an indication of the truncation of debate that is taking place.
I will turn to the specifics of what is being suggested. Although I object in principle, I intend no criticism of the usual channels. We have a good working relationship and, despite the constraint that the Government cannot agree to what I want and I will never agree to a programme motion in principle, we talk to each other. I cannot speak for Government Members, but I assure you, Mr. Hughes, that although I object to what they are doing, I will try to make the process as pain-free as I can. I do not want anybody to think that there has been a breakdown in the usual channels of communication before we start.
When the Minister introduced the motion and told us that it was okay, he said that we will cover all the Bill in the time available. If he is that good at predicting the future, could he please tell me the winner of the 2.30 this afternoon, at whatever race course they are racing at? I would make a fortune. It appears that he knows before we start how we are going to get on. I dispute that. Issues could arise that will take longer than we think, or we could finish earlier. There are those who think that my business is to ensure that we take as long as possible, and I am afraid that I upset those people. The Minister nods. He takes the view that, just because I stand up and speak, I am determined to see that the Committee runs its time. If only he had bothered to read the Hansard report of Tuesday's sitting of the Standing Committee on the Railways Bill; he would have discovered that although I was the Whip on that Committee—my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) were there as well—we finished with a sitting in hand. As it turned out, it was not necessary to continue, but we did not know that when we started.
It is possible that, in this case, we may finish before 3 February, but it is equally possible that we may finish on 3 February only because of a guillotine that insists that we do and that there will be unconsidered business. It ought to be possible in grown-up politics for the Government to be prepared to be reasonable about democracy and reasonable with the Opposition. On 6 May, they will be in opposition and they will discover that some of the rules that they have made to try to silence us will cause them great difficulty. If I were them I would, if nothing else, learn from other people. They should have some idea of what is in this for them in the future.
There is one other thing. In the Programming Sub-Committee last night, the Minister, to whom I am grateful because I know that he was genuinely and sincerely trying to help us, said that we could overcome the difficulties of lack of time by sitting late—that from the party that wanted to modernise this place so that we did not sit late. The best that he can do is to say that we will keep on sitting. I will be interested to see how he votes next Wednesday in the debate on the sitting hours.
On principle, the motion is wrong because it tramples on democracy, and in practice, it means that, in certain circumstances, if we were to do justice to the issues raised, the Minister would want us to sit into the evening or all night. That cannot be sensible and it certainly cannot be democratic. I hope that you will allow a Division, Mr. Hughes.
The House of Commons.
In a normal session there are up to ten standing committees on bills. Each has a chair and from 16 to 50 members. Standing committee members on bills are appointed afresh for each new bill by the Committee of Selection which is required to take account of the composition of the House of Commons (ie. party proportions) as well as the qualification of members to be nominated. The committees are chaired by a member of the Chairmen's Panel (whose members are appointed by the Speaker). In standing committees the Chairman has much the same function as the Speaker in the House of Commons. Like the Speaker, a chairman votes only in the event of a tie, and then usually in accordance with precedent. The committees consider each bill clause by clause and may make amendments. There are no standing committees in the House of Lords.
A proposal for new legislation that is debated by Parliament.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
The Opposition are the political parties in the House of Commons other than the largest or Government party. They are called the Opposition because they sit on the benches opposite the Government in the House of Commons Chamber. The largest of the Opposition parties is known as Her Majesty's Opposition. The role of the Official Opposition is to question and scrutinise the work of Government. The Opposition often votes against the Government. In a sense the Official Opposition is the "Government in waiting".
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
