Clause 45 - Short title, repeals, commencement,

Identity Cards Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 5:45 pm on 27 January 2005.

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Photo of Humfrey Malins Humfrey Malins Shadow Minister, Home Affairs 5:45, 27 January 2005

I beg to move amendment No. 110, in page 38, line 9, after 'the', insert 'National Registration and'.

I could entertain the Committee for quite a long time on this amendment but I will not. I ask the Minister for a brief response to a brief introduction.

The Bill is about the database, rather than the card. The whole public discussion over the last year or two has centred on ID cards and excluded the database. As the debates have progressed it has become clear that the purpose of the Bill and many of its most worrying contents relate to the register and the information kept thereon. It would be a better reflection of the Bill if the title were not simply the ''Identity Cards Bill'' but something wider, such as the national registration and identity cards Bill.

Photo of Mr Richard Allan Mr Richard Allan Shadow Spokesperson for the Cabinet Office, Cabinet Office, Shadow Spokesperson (Business, Innovation and Skills), Shadow Spokesperson (Trade and Industry)

I support the amendment. Many of the purposes that the Government wish to achieve will be done through the provisions of the national identity register. The ID cards are an optional extra. Once most of the population are equipped with biometric passports, the ID card will be functionally redundant. I suspect that, at some point in future, a rational decision will be taken not to issue a separate ID card; if someone has a biometric passport, they will be able to leave it at that and not bother with the ID card at all, because the two are functionally equivalent, assuming that the register is there. The title suggested by the hon. Member for Woking would stand the test of time better than the existing title, in respect of having an Act that does what it says on the   box and that tells the public precisely what kind of innovation it is introducing.

Photo of Des Browne Des Browne Minister of State (Citizenship, Immigration and Counter-Terrorism), Home Office, Minister of State (Home Office) (Citizenship, Immigration and Nationality)

Earlier in our deliberations I listened carefully to an exhortation by the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon to use language that people understand. It seems that the people of this country clearly understand identity cards. Indeed, interestingly enough, the identity card scheme of 1939 was introduced under the National Registration Act 1939. However, I pray in aid the logic of the right hon. Gentleman: how many people remember that distinction? How many of those who carried that card referred to their national registration card, and not their ID card?

I have some sympathy for the argument of the hon. Member for Woking, and I understand the logic of his suggestion. However, the process involved an earlier consultation, and the response from the public made it perfectly clear that they understood the concept of identity cards. Now it would appear that they also understand the concept of the register to support the cards. It would be unnecessarily confusing for us to change at this stage in the debate. Much as I accept that the hon. Gentleman's argument is persuasive, I cannot be persuaded by it, and I resist the amendment.

Photo of Humfrey Malins Humfrey Malins Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

I am grateful to the Minister for taking that point on board. It might have been better if we had given the Bill a different title right at the beginning but, having got so far, and having noted the Minister's interesting point about the second world war cards, I shall not press the amendment. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 45 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 2 agreed to.

Photo of Derek Conway Derek Conway Conservative, Old Bexley and Sidcup

Before I put the final Question to the Committee, on behalf of Janet Anderson and myself I would like to thank the Clerk, who has served our Committee extraordinarily efficiently, the staff of the Serjeant at Arms Department and the Official Report, and the police for ensuring that our proceedings were in order. We also thank members of the Committee and the usual channels for their co-operation with the Chairmen.

Photo of Humfrey Malins Humfrey Malins Shadow Minister, Home Affairs

On a point of order, Mr. Conway. On behalf of Conservative Members, I pay a warm tribute to you and Ms Anderson for the charming, courteous and efficient way in which you have dealt with the Committee. It has genuinely been a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and that of Ms Anderson.

As always, our thanks extend to Hansard, the Serjeant at Arms Department, the police and the Doorkeepers for their excellent and supportive work. I agree with you entirely, Mr. Conway, that we should give a particular mention to our excellent Clerk, Mr. Colin Lee, who could not have been more helpful to any Committee member who sought his advice on any technical matter. He has behaved magnificently.

I thank my right hon. and hon. Friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold and my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon are in their place. I thank them both for their contributions to the   Committee, which has been a pleasant Committee most of the time. In fact, it has been fun in the sense that we have had some enjoyable and worthwhile debates. We have had our difficult moments, but on the other hand we have done our best to scrutinise the Bill.

The Minister has been unfailingly helpful and courteous to all of us, and I thank him warmly for his approach, which has been typical of his manner throughout his time in office so far. I thank the usual channels for their assistance to all of us.

Photo of Mr Richard Allan Mr Richard Allan Shadow Spokesperson for the Cabinet Office, Cabinet Office, Shadow Spokesperson (Business, Innovation and Skills), Shadow Spokesperson (Trade and Industry)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Conway. I similarly extend the thanks of Liberal Democrat Members and the usual courtesies to all those who have assisted our proceedings, and particularly to you and Ms Anderson. As the hon. Member for Woking said, this Committee has been very enjoyable, although from our point of view a little too brief. We would have wished to spend a couple more happy weeks discussing the issues. That being said, it has been enjoyable. The Minister has responded very fully, and that has been helpful. We have a lot on the record from this Committee, and that will be useful.

The Minister has not yet entirely persuaded us of his point of view, but the Committee has been worth while in that it has done what it should: it has got on the record a significant extra degree of clarification about the details of the legislation. I thank again all those who served us so well.

Photo of Des Browne Des Browne Minister of State (Citizenship, Immigration and Counter-Terrorism), Home Office, Minister of State (Home Office) (Citizenship, Immigration and Nationality) 6:00, 27 January 2005

Further to that point of order, Mr. Conway. I want to associate myself with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Members for Woking and for Sheffield, Hallam. I will not detain the Committee, but I would fail in my duty if I did not say that, in my view, we have had a full, honest and open discussion, in an appropriate spirit, of an important Bill that will affect us all.

I had some differences with Opposition Committee members about the need for a programme motion, but I believe that it helped. It provided some discipline in the timetabling of our proceedings, and I would argue that we have been able to debate nearly all the 45 clauses and two schedules in some detail. However, there are issues to which we shall return on Report.

I should like to thank Opposition Committee members, in particular the hon. Members for Woking, for Newark and for Sheffield, Hallam, for their helpful probing amendments. I thank all Committee members for their contributions, and in particular my hon. Friends for their support throughout the proceedings. I have agreed to take some matters away to reflect on, and I have written two letters to you, Mr. Conway, to provide more detailed information for the benefit of all Committee members. If our proceedings today caused a need for a further letter, I shall send that post haste.

I also thank the Clerk, for his advice and support, the officials, Hansard, the Doorkeepers and the police, who have ensured that our proceedings have run smoothly. Without the support that we have in this   House, it would be much more difficult to get through difficult proceedings, never mind at the pace at which we got through these.

Perhaps unusually, I should like to thank the Whips for the way in which they helped us reach the end of   the Committee. Finally, I thank Ms Anderson and you, Mr. Conway, for your courtesy, unfailing understanding and the sense of humour with which you chaired the proceedings.

Bill, as amended, to be reported.

Committee rose at two minutes past Six o'clock.