Clause 41 - penalties on conviction

Part of Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 9:45 am on 25 January 2005.

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Photo of Ms Sue Doughty Ms Sue Doughty Shadow Minister (the Environment), Environment, Food & Rural Affairs 9:45, 25 January 2005

I welcome you back to our Committee, Mr. Taylor. It is always interesting having two Chairmen. I am grateful to both of you for ensuring that we proceed at a reasonable pace.

My main concern about the clause is that the penalties must be set at a level that will act as a deterrent. One of the things that emerged clearly from the Environmental Audit Committee report on environmental crime and the courts is that magistrates are reluctant to fine up to the current level. Little account is taken of the profits that accrue from the crime. If we are to have hard penalties that deter people, we must ensure that the courts have guidelines.

One of the worrying things that we found in our investigation was that, because magistrates see these cases so infrequently, they do not get their heads around the fact that people are making real money. Fly-tipping is big business for some of these people. There are repeat offenders. They get up to all sorts of nonsense such as burying waste, tipping waste, causing annoyance to everyone else, simply so that they can make a profit. I want to know that the courts will bear that in mind. We need guidelines on sentencing and training. I hope that the Government will consider whether some magistrates ought to be more specialist in this area. At present they do everything and they are not on top of the problem. Burglary comes up week after week in a magistrates court, but fly-tipping does not. In fact, fly-tipping comes up infrequently. We need magistrates to understand the importance of the matter. We also need to ensure that the fines imposed on companies are substantial enough to have a real economic impact. The bad publicity should also have an impact. At present, we are not dealing properly with the people involved in committing those really wicked crimes, which pollute the environment, taint land and waterways and cause immense environmental problems.

I should like to hear from the Minister what steps the Government will take to ensure that the magistracy makes a much stronger assessment of the harm done, and of the frequency of fly-tipping, particularly by certain businesses or individuals, to ensure that there is a real deterrent. We wanted to see higher sentences in place, because previously there was no deterrent. When we discuss the next clause, I shall return to our concern about conviction. However, at this stage, I say that is no good having the deterrents if the courts are afraid to use them.