I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Taylor, in a capacity that I am not used to filling. For the benefit of today's proceedings, I am a talking Whip. I am trying to fill the shoes—some would say that it is an almost impossible job—of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh), who is unavoidably detained on business elsewhere. Hon. Members may wonder how anything could be more pressing than part 5 of this Bill, and I cannot fathom why she should not want to be here.

The Clause needs briefly to be put in context, so I hope that you will not rule me out of order, Mr. Taylor. It covers the defence of acting under employer's instructions, but it is in line with the other clauses of this part of the Bill, which tighten up the penalties for illegal disposal of waste and fly-tipping. Much fly-tipping is prompted by the desire to avoid existing penalties and sanctions. Many unscrupulous people think that the controls and charges associated with the disposal of waste are worth avoiding. They want to avoid paying a fee for collection by a local authority, having to have a waste licence or having to pay landfill tax. Although fly-tipping is a criminal offence, some people are not yet deterred by the penalties attached to it, which can be a fine of up to £20,000 or six months' imprisonment if convicted in a magistrates court, and an unlimited fine or up to two years in prison if convicted in a Crown court.

We all understand why, at United Kingdom and European level, there is a demand for the tightening up of penalties and the drawing of offences. However, before discussing the meat of clause 40, which provides an almost instantaneous and considerable change, we have to be mindful that tightening up the offences and the penalties associated with new offences may make it more attractive for potential transgressors to try to avoid the law. The higher the penalty, the more attractive it may become economically to try to get around the law.

What consideration has the Minister given to the possible intimidation of employees by their employers when asked to carry out unlawful activities? The clause, in effect, repeals section 33(7)(b) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. Why is there a need to repeal it now? What was the reasoning for that defence for employees? What has changed in the intervening years that means that employees should get less protection? We need to have a better understanding of the position of employees under the clause.

In short, does the Minister agree that it would be unfortunate if employees were unfairly prosecuted if it could be shown that they were under undue pressure and forced to carry out such duties against their will? Are there any other legal dispensations that would give an employee who is being coerced or threatened protection against his employer, because the clause appears to render any necessary protection nugatory? There will be no statutory protection. I look forward to hearing the Minister's comments on those focused points.