Part of Gambling Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 2:30 pm on 11 November 2004.
Mr Richard Page
Conservative, South West Hertfordshire
2:30,
11 November 2004
May I say, Mr. Gale, that I appreciate your ruling, which is immensely helpful to us when planning what to do with these amendments?
The Minister, in a cavalier fashion, threw in a few minor comments in his response to the Amendment, such as a bit of registration, a bit of licensing and ''Let's move on quickly, lads.'' Unfortunately for him, one or two hon. Members picked up on his points. Can he be a little broader in what he says and throw a little more light on the scene? The debate has been quite heated and two or three throwaway comments must be fleshed out a little before we can go further.
In his evidence to the scrutiny Committee, the chief executive of the British Association of British Bookmakers, Mr. Kelly, was asked whether he had a view on what
'' 'in the course of a business' ought to mean and''
whether it should
''be made clear on the face of the Bill?''
Mr. Kelly replied:
''One of the deficiencies in the current legislation is that there is an ambiguity surrounding that particular phrase''—
I do not think that anyone has a problem with registration. When someone clocks in with an account, they fill in whether they are an owner, trainer or jockey and provide any other relevant information to enable a more effective audit trail. Is the Minister suggesting that ordinary bookmakers with bookmaker's accounts will require the same information from their customers when they register?
While the Minister is chewing on those points, I return to the question of having to obtain a licence to operate. If someone operates an exchange account without parallel access to a bookmaker's account or another account, there is a difficulty because they are running a straight book, which anyone could do, without the bookmaker's advantage of being able to judge the odds to their benefit. In a two-horse race, a bookmaker does not give even odds on both. One horse will be so many points on and the other will be a few points against. There is a margin for the bookmaker who is operating the book. The position for betting exchanges is entirely different. We are not dealing with apples and pears and I ask the Minister to consider the point.
Bookmakers need a permit because they deal with the public. I mentioned this before we adjourned for lunch. Betting exchanges, however, do not have exactly that responsibility, so I do not see how giving licences to exchange users will provide any more advantage than already exists, unless the hand of the Treasury and the Inland Revenue is involved and they are saying, ''Ah, if someone is using this system and making a profit, they should be paying a form of tax.'' That is why I ask the Minister to come clean and not just throw out a few casual words and try to move on as quickly as possible. I can see his mental feet working like mad under the desk to try to get away from the problem, but Opposition Members will return to the matter to ask why if there is not a revenue consequence he wants such a system.
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