Fire and Rescue Services Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 5:45 pm on 24 February 2004.
Edward O'Hara
Labour, Knowsley South
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment No. 93, in
Clause 22, page 10, line 39, leave out from 'authority' to first 'the' in line 40 and insert
'discharges its functions under sections 6, 7, 8 and 9.'.
Amendment No. 98, in
clause 23, page 11, line 15, leave out from 'authority's' to 'as' in line 16 and insert
'discharge of its functions under sections 6, 7, 8 and 9'.
Philip Hammond
Shadow Minister (Communities and Local Government)
In tabling these amendments, we sought to address the Secretary of State's power to intervene where an authority is failing. Amendment No. 92 would remove from subsection (1) the reference to an authority that ''is likely to fail''. It is not unreasonable that the Intervention should take place after the offence has occurred, not when the Secretary of State thinks that it might occur.
Together, the amendments would remove references to acting
''in accordance with the Framework'',
and substitute them with references to authorities discharging their functions under clauses 6, 7, 8 and 9. If an authority was properly discharging its core functions, it would be wholly inappropriate for the Secretary of State to intervene because it was not complying with all the requirements of the framework in relation to human resource issues or employment practices. If we do not limit the Secretary of State's powers to intervene to cases in which there has been a clear failure to discharge statutory functions, the concept of local accountability and autonomy will have become meaningless.
Amendment No. 98 would amend Clause 23—again replacing the reference to compliance with clause 21 with a reference to the authority discharging its functions under clauses 6, 7, 8 and 9.
The amendments are necessary to preserve the autonomy of fire and rescue authorities, and to ensure that the draconian powers granted to the Secretary of State under the clause, which will be exercised under the best value audit system, will not be imposed on authorities merely for failing to comply with the national framework, but according to the much more important question of whether they are discharging their statutory functions in relation to fire, road traffic accidents, fire safety or any other duties that the Secretary of State might prescribe under clause 9. That should be the test of whether intervention is required.
Nick Raynsford
Minister of State (Office of the Deputy Prime Minister) (Local and Regional Government)
I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's Amendment. He proposes that Intervention should be delayed until the failure has taken place. Much of the evidence is that early intervention can help to avoid failure, and in the interests of public safety that is clearly paramount. National issues are accounted for in the framework which are also of importance.
It being Six o'clock, The Chairman proceeded, pursuant to Sessional Order C(9) [6 November 2003] and the Order of the Committee [10 February 2004], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The Committee divided: Ayes 4, Noes 8
Division number 7
Adults Abused in Childhood — Clause 22 - Intervention by Secretary of State
Question accordingly negatived.
The Chairman then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at that time.
Clause 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 23 and 24 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Adjourned till Thursday 26 February at twenty-five minutes past Nine o'clock.
Secretary of State was originally the title given to the two officials who conducted the Royal Correspondence under Elizabeth I. Now it is the title held by some of the more important Government Ministers, for example the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
A parliamentary bill is divided into sections called clauses.
Printed in the margin next to each clause is a brief explanatory `side-note' giving details of what the effect of the clause will be.
During the committee stage of a bill, MPs examine these clauses in detail and may introduce new clauses of their own or table amendments to the existing clauses.
When a bill becomes an Act of Parliament, clauses become known as sections.
An intervention is when the MP making a speech is interrupted by another MP and asked to 'give way' to allow the other MP to intervene on the speech to ask a question or comment on what has just been said.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
A parliamentary bill is divided into sections called clauses.
Printed in the margin next to each clause is a brief explanatory `side-note' giving details of what the effect of the clause will be.
During the committee stage of a bill, MPs examine these clauses in detail and may introduce new clauses of their own or table amendments to the existing clauses.
When a bill becomes an Act of Parliament, clauses become known as sections.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
An intervention is when the MP making a speech is interrupted by another MP and asked to 'give way' to allow the other MP to intervene on the speech to ask a question or comment on what has just been said.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
