[Sir Nicholas Winterton in the Chair]

As one of the two Chairmen—my co-Chairman is Mr. Edward O'Hara—I welcome all Committee members to the first sitting. Looking at them, I have no doubt but that it will be a constructive and agreeable Committee and that it will do its job in properly and fully scrutinising this important Bill.

I beg to move,

That—

(1) during proceedings on the Fire and Rescue Services Bill the Standing Committee shall meet when the House is sitting on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 9.25 am and 2.30 pm;

(2) 10 sittings shall be allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Committee;

(3) the proceedings shall be taken in the order specified in the Table below;

(4) the proceedings specified in the first column of the Table shall be brought to a conclusion (unless already concluded) at the time specified in the second column of the Table.

TABLE

Proceedings

Time for conclusion of proceedings

Clauses 1 to 20

11.25 am at the 5th sitting

Clauses 21 to 36

5 pm at the 8th sitting

Clauses 37 to 51, Schedule 1, Clause 52, Schedule 2, Clauses 53 to 61, New Clauses, New Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill.

5 pm at the 10th sitting

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Sir Nicholas. I have had the pleasure of serving under you twice previously in Standing Committees. The first, which I believe we can look back on with mutual pleasure, debated the Bill that became the Greater London Authority Act 1999, which took many Committee sittings. Towards the end of the proceedings, an official told me that it was turning out to be the longest running consideration of legislation since the passage of the Government of India Act 1935. I am pleased to say that the Bill that we are considering in this Committee is not of those dimensions. Last year, Sir Nicholas, I had the pleasure of serving under you on the Committee that considered what became the Local Government Act 2003, which were extremely agreeable and constructive proceedings. On both Committees, your wise and humorous chairmanship was fundamental to ensuring the effective scrutiny and good spirit that characterises Committees at their best. I look forward to serving under you and your colleague, Mr. O'Hara.

I should stress that the Bill is important and historic. It is the first substantive legislative change to affect the fire and rescue service for over 50 years and is a crucial element in our agenda for modernising

the fire service. The Bill will help to save lives through the new duty to promote fire safety, which underpins our strategy for a more prevention-based approach to fire. It will establish a modern legislative structure to recognise the current role of the fire and rescue service in responding to a range of incidents that were not fully anticipated when the Fire Services Act 1947 was passed. It includes measures to deal with road traffic accidents and emergencies such as flooding, and preparations to guard against and respond to the new terrorist threat.

The Bill will also give statutory force to the fire and rescue national framework and place a duty on the Secretary of State to keep the framework up to date and report on it. That is fundamental to ensuring effective national provision of safety through the fire service. The Bill will also underpin the service's contribution to national resilience through responding to specific emergencies, and it will allow fire and rescue authorities to work with others to deliver and discharge their new functions while recognising that fighting fires should be undertaken only by qualified firefighters. Those are all important measures. We will deal with others as we go through the details of the Bill, but I will not weary the Committee with any further reference now.

As for the programme motion, we have agreed on 10 sittings, which is more than might be expected for a relatively small Bill of 61 clauses. The motion recognises the importance of the Bill and the need for thorough scrutiny. The knives allow more time for debate on the earlier parts of the Bill, on which, we guess, there will be the most detailed debate. That said, we intend to approach the Committee in a flexible way to allow the best use of time and thorough scrutiny of all parts. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) is especially keen to have time to scrutinise part 3. If we end debate on the first 20 clauses a little earlier than the knives suggest in order to allow more time on part 3, that will be satisfactory from our point of view. Our aim is to be as flexible as possible in these matters.

I have circulated additional information on the secondary legislation to which the Bill will give effect. I hope that that assists the Committee. I will be more than happy to provide further information, if that is helpful, in the course of our work. That said, we have important work in hand, and I should not delay matters by talking further about the programme motion. I hope that we shall have a well structured and constructive debate that ensures that the Bill, as it leaves Committee, is in the best possible shape to achieve the objectives that I have outlined.

I was interested to hear the Minister apparently yearning for the days when Standing Committee proceedings were lengthier and involved more leisurely deliberation. I remember with great pleasure the Standing Committee on the National Minimum Wage Bill—my first major Standing Committee. Sadly, it was not under your chairmanship, Sir Nicholas; it was chaired by the equally redoubtable hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody). Many a happy night was spent

considering that Bill in this very Room. I remember the pleasure of seeing the sun rise behind the Minister's head every Tuesday and Thursday morning, casting him into silhouette in front of me. It was an enjoyable and interesting experience, because many people are under the impression that the orientation of this Building is such that the river fa¢ade is to the south, whereas in fact, as anyone who has spent a night on the Opposition Benches in Committee here will know, it faces due east.

I hope that this Minister's enthusiasm for more deliberation on Bills in Committee will pervade the Government's thinking about the way in which the House of Commons currently conducts its business. Indeed, we may manage to see a return to more leisurely consideration of Bills in Committee in future.

The Opposition support the moves that the Government are making in the Bill to broaden the remit of the fire and rescue services. We are, however, somewhat concerned about the degree of centralisation in the Bill and the wide, general powers that it gives the Secretary of State. Those powers are in stark contrast to the rhetoric about restoring local control and accountability to the fire and rescue services which we frequently heard from Members on the Government Benches during the firefighters dispute in 2002–03, and that is at the root of the modernisation agenda underlying the Bill.

We are also concerned about the status of the national framework document, which will be created, revised and updated by Ministers and officials without being agreed or approved by Parliament and which is given statutory force by the Bill. We are greatly perplexed by the Government's apparent determination in the face of all the evidence and all arguments to the contrary to pursue an agenda of regionalisation of our fire service on the basis of the existing Government offices of the regions.

Order. I hesitate to intervene at this early stage, but we are considering the programme motion, not the general principles of the Bill. I allowed the Minister to make general introductory remarks, but the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge is straying a bit too far from the motion.

Thank you for your guidance, Sir Nicholas. I am well aware that this is not the time for a Second Reading debate. I was counting carefully in my head to see how long you would allow the Minister's remarks to range across Second Reading-type issues. I thought that I had judged my response to be almost exactly as long, but I may be wrong. I have now made all the remarks that I wanted to make on those issues.

I turn to the programme motion, as the Minister eventually did. I accept that 10 sittings should give us enough time to consider the Bill, and I thank the Minister for allowing that number of sittings. I have not always been able to say that we are satisfied with the amount of time that has been made available. This time, however, we did not vote against the programme motion at the end of the Second Reading debate. I like to think that the reason for this more generous allocation of time is that the Minister quite likes

Committees and enjoys the process of scrutinising Bills line by line. In my experience, not all Ministers enjoy spending their Tuesdays and Thursday in Committee.

I am, however, a little concerned that the morning sittings start at 9.25 am, rather than at the more traditional 8.55 am. In yesterday's Programming Sub-Committee, the Government Whip indicated that if we run short of time as a result of this later start, the Government are prepared to be flexible and allow the Committee to sit later in the afternoons. That is welcome, and it is right that I should acknowledge that. I am, however, a little sensitive to outside perceptions about what we do in this place. I have defended us many times to constituents who have noted that we finish earlier in the evenings than we used to by telling them that Committees now start before 9 o'clock in the morning. Sadly, I will no longer be able to do so. We have to be mindful of how the world outside sees us.

Generally, we disapprove of the use of knives in our proceedings. I was, however, pleased that the Minister reconfirmed that the Government will take a flexible approach to the Committee's proceedings. I do not believe that anyone in Committee intends to delay the proceedings unnecessarily. Some clauses are uncontroversial, and there will be little to say about them except to ask the Minister for clarification. Other clauses give rise to large political questions that will need wide-ranging debate, and I will not repeat those themes now. I hope that we will be able to order our affairs in a way that enables us to spend the necessary time discussing broader issues, as well as asking specific detailed questions raised by large numbers of fire authorities throughout the country which are concerned by particular technical aspects of the Bill. Those questions need to be dealt with, but I am grateful for the Minister's assurance that he will be flexible.

Finally, I do not know whether I am unique in this, but I have not received any further information from the Minister. I have not checked my post this morning, but I had certainly not had that information last night, and I do not know whether other Committee members are fully up to speed. It will be extremely helpful if copies of whatever information the Minister has circulated can be made available in the Room.

This is only the third Standing Committee on which I have sat, and it is the first on which I have led for my party, so I do so with some trepidation, and I hope that the Committee and the Minister will be as gentle with me as they can.

It is the Chairman who matters.

I already know of your kindness and gentleness, Sir Nicholas.

In terms of the timing, 10 sittings is more than adequate. As the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge has commented, there will be parts of the Bill that are controversial, but I am sure that the uncontroversial parts will have the support of Members of all parties—not that I wish to put words into people's mouths.

I disagree with the Conservative Front-Bench spokesman about the 9.25 am start. It gives us time to arrive at the House, to see our offices and to make contact with people before we come into Committee. I find that very helpful. Having noted that my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) only just made it, and that other hon. Members arrived slightly late, I think that 9.25 might even be early for some. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge made a brief reference to the orientation of the Building—its being north to south, rather than east to west, as one might assume. I am familiar with that concept because, although my constituency is in south Devon, the coast faces east, so I am used to looking south in the morning and seeing the sun rise. I do not find it a contradiction—the sun will rise as it always does.

I do not understand how the sun can rise in the south.

Order. I do not want a geography lesson.

People who live or holiday there perceive the sun as rising in the south.

We support the programme motion, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That—

(1) during proceedings on the Fire and Rescue Services Bill the Standing Committee shall meet when the House is sitting on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 9.25 am and 2.30 pm;

(2) 10 sittings shall be allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Committee;

(3) the proceedings shall be taken in the order specified in the Table below;

(4) the proceedings specified in the first column of the Table shall be brought to a conclusion (unless already concluded) at the time specified in the second column of the Table.

TABLE

Proceedings

Time for conclusion of proceedings

Clauses 1 to 20

11.25 am at the 5th sitting

Clauses 21 to 36

5 pm at the 8th sitting

Clauses 37 to 51, Schedule 1, Clause 52, Schedule 2, Clauses 53 to 61, New Clauses, New Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill.

5 pm at the 10th sitting

I remind the Committee that there is a money resolution in connection with the Bill. Copies are available in the Room. I remind hon. Members also that adequate notice should be given of amendments. As a rule, my fellow Chairman and I do not intend to call starred amendments, including any starred amendment that might be reached during an afternoon sitting. I would also like to draw to the Committee's attention the fact that the line numbering on pages 1 to 3 of the Bill is slightly out of alignment. Members should count down from the top of those pages to ensure that they are referring to the correct lines.