Clause 19 - Power to make emergency regulations

Part of Civil Contingencies Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 3:45 pm on 3 February 2004.

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Photo of Oliver Heald Oliver Heald Shadow Leader of the House of Commons 3:45, 3 February 2004

The debate on Second Reading relating to this issue was characterised by a great deal of complacency on the part of Ministers. The obvious point has been made that the recently published Phillis report found that there is poor co-ordination between Departments and agencies, the Central Office of Information, the Cabinet Office and No. 10. That shows up most starkly when there are Government-wide crises, such as the outbreak of foot and mouth in 2001. The Police Federation has called for clear and unambiguous issues pertaining to jurisdiction, remit, lines of control and lines of communication to be set up, and has talked about permitting proper and effective co-ordination. Yet on Second Reading, the Minister fell back on long-standing practices and frameworks in a most surprising way, given his usual commitment to modernisation and the cutting edge—big conversations, and that sort of thing. That was slightly disappointing. Is the Minister seriously saying that he would prefer to have the Whips and the Deputy Prime Minister making these decisions, rather than a Secretary of State whose specific role would be to look after civil contingencies? If the Minister or Under-Secretary is saying that, it needs some explaining, because it sounds staggeringly complacent in a world that has changed since 11 September 2001.

It is incumbent upon the Ministers to explain why they are so against having one Secretary of State with the power to decide matters of homeland security. One suspects the reason for it is Whitehall turf. [Interruption.] I am getting close to the horse. One suspects that it is to do with the Home Office and other

Departments wanting to retain their own areas. I call on the Minister to explain why he is so determined to stick to the old, tried and tested, long-standing practices, as he put it, when he is usually for the modernisation of everything.

I would like to say something about the Whips, and, in particular, pay tribute to the hon. Member for Lewisham, West, whom I shadowed for a couple of years doing Friday Whip. I must say it was very enjoyable and we worked very co-operatively together, although I think he blocked every Bill we wanted. There may be some role for senior Whips to perform, but it is not the passing of emergency legislation, and I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham who, on Second Reading, said:

''What possible reason should there be for a group of Whips, whose names we barely know, having the power to lay draconian regulations such as those I have described. That is preposterous, and I can think of no sensible reason why it should be the case—other than tradition, perhaps, but I know of no sensible tradition that would maintain such nonsense.''—[Official Report, 19 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 1039.]

We have had an interesting discussion about the five, the seven, and the nine—it reminded me of Enid Blyton meets ''Lord of the Rings''. The Minister needs to have another look at this. We do not want the Whips creating a state of emergency, particularly following recent events in the Labour Party.