Schedule 1 - Amendments to Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943

Part of Armed Forces – in a Public Bill Committee at 10:00 am on 24 February 2004.

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Photo of David Lammy David Lammy Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Constitutional Affairs) 10:00, 24 February 2004

I am not sure whether I am David or Goliath here. Certainly on most mornings I am David. I will try to answer the serious point that has been made. I am glad that the Committee is spending some time on this issue. Most case hearings before the commissioners are heard on paper. In that sense, representation is not an issue. When I talked about the 20 or so cases, I was referring to cases that were appealed from the PAT to the social security commissioners. About 8,000 PAT cases are heard, but 20 cases were appealed to the High Court.

In two thirds of those 20 cases, the applicant did not request an oral hearing. If there is an oral hearing, it is designed to be user friendly without the requirement of legal representation. Many countries are examining our tribunal system and seeking to replicate it. It has been set up so that people can represent themselves. If an oral hearing is requested, the procedure is very different from that of a High Court hearing.

The hon. Gentleman properly stresses the distinction between the High Court and the new system. In that sense, the system is less formal. There are no wigs and gowns. There is far less legalese, specifically to assist those who seek to appeal from the PAT. I should also stress the inquisitorial nature of the social security commissioners. They will question the party and any attendant experts. They will seek to resolve the issues in that questioning manner, rather than with opposing legal counsel presenting technical arguments to a judge.

The hon. Gentleman made a point about the British Legion. I want to put on record the work that is done. I am the Minister responsible for legal aid. The hon. Gentleman will understand that quite properly under our arrangements and the arrangements of previous Governments, legal aid is administered separately. It was formerly administered by the Legal Aid Board. It is now administered by the Legal Services Commission. The Government should not get involved in who does and does not get money. That would be improper.

The fund does not just facilitate legal aid lawyers. We have had much discussion about lawyers providing publicly funded work. It also funds citizens advice bureaux. It funds law centres throughout the country. I have visited projects in Brighton that have received money from the Legal Services Commission, in towns such as Brighton—very close to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Hove's constituency—Bromley and, recently, Barnsley. Not-for-profit organisations do get funding from the LSC. If there were an application, it would of course be considered, as long as it met the appropriate criteria. One would expect the LSC to examine that closely. Essentially, however, representation is not strictly necessary, because most of the applicants themselves seek to apply on the papers, as it were, and challenge what they think is the wrong legal interpretation of their case.