I beg to move amendment No. 58, in schedule 1, page 113, line 3, leave out paragraph 14 and insert—

'Educational and social establishments

14 The provision of entertainment is not regarded as regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act if it is undertaken on the premises of—

(a) an educational establishment for the purposes directly connected to the activities of the establishment;

(b) a prison for the purposes incidental to the activities of the prison;

(c) a hospital for the purposes incidental to the activities of the hospital; or

(d) a museum or public gallery for purposes incidental to the activities of the museum or public gallery.'.

With this we may take Government amendment No. 5.

Amendment No. 58 is a replica of an amendment that was proposed in the other place. I understand that the Government went some way to meeting its requirements. Paragraph 14 now acknowledges that entertainment in an educational establishment for purposes directly connected with that establishment's activities is not to be regarded as provision of regulated entertainment. If the concession has been allowed for educational establishments, we still query why it is not extended to prisons, hospitals and museums, where the entertainment is incidental to the establishment's activities.

We are well aware that functions are put on in hospitals, and also now in prisons as a means of rehabilitating prisoners, who take part in operas, plays or musical activities. There can surely be no question of such activities causing disturbance or disorder in a prison, with all its rules and regulations. Knowing where prisons are situated, I do not believe that they would cause a noise problem either. I would not have thought that hospitals had huge facilities to hold large entertainment gatherings, and, again, I imagine that in most cases facilities for entertainment in museums and galleries are small, any activities that take place are small scale and related to fundraising.

We tabled the amendment to test again the Government's reasons for not allowing entertainment to take place in those establishments, as they have conceded that educational establishments will be all right. If they are all right, why are the others not all right? Again, there is inconsistency and a lack of logic in the Government's approach. We shall be interested to hear what the Minister says.

Before we proceed, I remind the Committee that I said on Tuesday that I was prepared

to permit a wide-ranging debate on the schedule because of the interrelated nature of the amendments and that on that basis I did not expect there to be a stand part debate on it. I mention that now, because if an hon. Member has anything to say, he must say it.

Thank you for that guidance, Mr. Gale. I shall bear it in mind.

Amendment No. 5 relates to paragraph 14 in part 2 of the schedule. I am sure that the Committee has sympathy with those who proposed the exemption—I certainly do—and with the focus of their argument in another place, which was to ensure that our schools do not have to be burdened with the administrative requirements of the Bill and, more important, with the associated costs. However, I see problems with the scope of the exemption and with some points of principle.

I shall deal first with the scope. The amendment uses the expression ''educational establishment'' without offering a more detailed definition. The term ''educational institution'' is more commonly found in statute. It is used in the Bill and is defined in clause 17(3). It means

''(a) a school, or an institution within the further or higher education sector, within the meaning of . . . the Education Act 1996 . . . or

(b) a college . . . school, hall or other institution of a university, in circumstances where the university receives financial support under section 65 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992''.

That gives us a better understanding of what would be exempted by paragraph 14. It would not be simply school plays and concerts and similar activities. The exemption would encompass a range of entertainments, such as dances, raves, rock concerts and major festivals held by universities, colleges and places of further education for their students and others. It can also be argued that it covers student unions.

These days student unions run and control nightclubs that are serious and major businesses. Their premises give rise to as many anxieties about alcohol consumption, disorder, noise nuisance and drugs as any similar commercial venture in our town and city centres. Indeed, they often are in our town and city centres. In my constituency the university is very close to the centre. It would be reckless in the extreme to exempt such premises from the Bill. For that reason we cannot allow the exemption to stand.

Perhaps the Minister can go into some detail about the debate in the other place. As he will be aware, the third line of the paragraph refers to

''purposes directly connected to the activities of the establishment''.

Although I understand the concern that student union events may be riotous and noisy, they would surely not, per se, fall within the amendment proposed in the other place.

That is a fair point, which goes to the heart of the problem, because what goes on in a student union or at one of the other events that I have mentioned has an immediate impact.

The Hornsey college of art.

God forbid! The hon. Gentleman refers to an educational establishment that I attended. The goings-on there would have been a problem if they had occurred in my street.

In this sitting we have seen a repeat of what has happened in previous sittings, when the Minister has used an extreme case to justify an amendment. He is applying the same principles for student union nightclubs to plays in schools put on for the benefit of parents or, say, local charities. The use of that extreme example undermines his argument. What is he trying to stop? Is there not a better way of doing it than by simply striking out the other place's amendment?

That is a fair intervention. I shall try to explain why the amendment made in another place is wrong. School concerts, carol services and so on are not the entire amendment. The amendment uses an expression that encompasses universities and further and higher education colleges, where the events that I have described take place regularly. That is a problem.

Will the Minister give way?

May I make a little progress and then I shall give way?

As regards points of principle, entertainment is regulated under the Bill to achieve the licensing objectives, not least, as I have explained, public safety. The establishments that the other place's amendment would partially exempt host a number of occasions that the public can attend. Schools stage commercial concerts and plays. However, because events take place in schools, it does not mean that the public should not be protected or expect to be protected.

I remind the Committee that the reforms under the Bill are designed to establish a level playing field for charitable and community bodies with a light touch and an unbureaucratic system. To exclude some premises entirely from the provision, while including others, would not achieve that aim. On Second Reading, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport announced her intention of placing schools and sixth form colleges on an equal footing with church halls, village halls and community venues by waiving the fees in relation to the provision of regulated entertainment. I now give way to the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss)

It was so long ago that I almost forgot the question that I wanted to ask the Minister. He used the term ''reckless in the extreme'', but as my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) said, the provision that deals with educational establishments clearly states:

''for the purposes directly connected to the activities of the establishment''.

It does not refer to purposes that are incidental to an establishment. Is the Minister making the case that raves and nightclubs at universities are directly connected to the activities of such establishments?

Yes, such activities are clearly connected to those establishments. They take place

on the premises and the thrust of the Bill is about ensuring that public safety is protected and that the lives of residents who live close to the establishments are not made a misery. It is important that we recognise that. The main purpose of an establishment may be education, but that does not mitigate the misery caused to residents who live close to it as a result of events that take place regularly on the campus.

The Minister's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire was absurd. It is like saying that a barn dance is connected directly to the activities of agriculture, because it takes place in a barn. A rave is not connected directly to the activities of an educational establishment because it takes place in such an establishment.

That is a nice debating point, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is far more sensible than that. He will understand that at large further and higher education establishments big businesses are often involved in entertainment, which is a direct consequence of the existence of a university or college. To advance that argument about a farmer or the owner of a barn occasionally applying for a licence to mount a barn dance or concert trivialises matters. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has large educational institutions on the Isle of Wight. He will know that they can be a potent source of disorder and discomfiture for people who reside near them. We must bear that in mind, as well as those people who visit them occasionally and who may be subject to rowdy behaviour and danger.

School concerts are licensable activities under existing legislation, although outside London a reduction in, or waiver of, a fee may be granted by the local authority if it considers that the entertainment is of an educational or like character. There is currently no exemption from the requirement for licensing.

Under the Bill, the teaching of music, including the performance of musical pieces in school by teachers and pupils for other teachers and pupils, is not a licensable activity.

Will the Minister give way?

I will in a moment. Such activities are private and the public are not admitted to them. They are not undertaken for a charge or with a view to profit and therefore do not qualify as regular entertainment on several fronts.

School concerts or plays for teachers, pupils, parents, guests and invited friends are not licensable activities unless a charge is made that is intended to generate profit. If the charge were meant to do no more than cover the school's costs for the provision of the entertainment, no profit would be intended and, again, the qualifying conditions would not be met. If a school concert or a play of that kind is staged for those that I have just mentioned and they are invited to make a donation to the school, but are not obliged to do so, the event will not be licensable. No charge will be made if only voluntary donations are sought, so many school activities of the type that we have been

debating are already outside the scope of regulated entertainment.

Under the Bill, the key point is whether the entertainment is intended to be provided for the public—in other words, whether anybody, whether connected to the school or not, can attend—and whether a charge is made and profit is the aim of the performance. We license commercial activity because the profit motive may override concerns for public safety and public nuisance. We license places open to the public because every citizen should know that his or her interests will be safeguarded, whether the building concerned is a school, a community hall or major commercial concert hall.

If a school wants to stage public concerts or activities that generate income, the licensing system is not over-burdensome. We must make sure that that continues to be so. Temporary event notices should not cost the organiser more than £20. That would cover events lasting up to three days, for less than 500 people. Five such events could be staged each year. If a school were more ambitious than that and plans larger events, it would need to obtain a premises licence that should cost no more than £100 initially and £50 each year.

I give an undertaking that we will look at developing the guidance for licensing authorities to ensure that over-burdensome and disproportionate conditions are not imposed on schools beyond those that are absolutely necessary to ensure the safety of performers and audiences alike, and to address the other licensing objectives.

When does a surplus on a school production become a profit and who will determine that? I fear that there will be much confusion in schools, which will take up many officers' time with inquiries about whether they should license the event. It would be better to have a much simpler definition that does not lay itself open to over-interested officials delving into what schools are doing, assuming they were instructed to do that by councillors to bring in more licensing fees.

That is a fair point. Such matters should certainly be included in the information and the guidance that we will put out to local authorities, which will, of course, have statutory effect. We do not want school administrators to have to spend their time worrying about whether they are £10 or £30 above a certain limit in recovering their costs. The hon. Gentleman knows that, because he has had much experience of it, but a lot of schools know very well what it is likely to cost them to put on a performance. If schools in my constituency are anything to go by, they become relaxed about it.

Having said that, we must ensure that there is no ambiguity in the information that we give out, so that schools do not spend a disproportionate amount of time worrying that an event that they mount will get too far beyond recovery of costs. I expect a good deal of leeway to be given in the way in which the school regards the case and the way in which the licensing authority regards it. I hope that a good deal of common sense would be used.

I turn to amendment No. 58. Many of the same arguments apply. While events held in prisons may enjoy—if hon. Members do not mind me saying so—a captive audience, even if it consisted almost entirely of inmates and the people who look after them, they are essentially private events and therefore not licensable, unless a charge is made with a view to profit. That is not likely in such circumstances. The same premise applies to patients in hospitals. An event to which guests and friends are invited in either prisons or hospitals would not be licensable unless a charge intended to generate a profit is made. If the charge were intended to do no more than cover the prison's or hospital's costs for the provision of the entertainment, no profit would be intended and the qualifying conditions for there to be regulated entertainment would not be met.

If a prison or hospital wants to stage public concerts or activities that generate income, a licence would be required. As I said, the licensing system is not overly burdensome in that respect.

The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire mentioned galleries and museums. Increasingly, those are being used for all sorts of events and commercial activities. They help to generate more income, bring the buildings to life and expose them to a wider audience. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster has a number of venues in his constituency that are increasingly being used in this way and I welcome that.

I see no logic in putting such establishments in a privileged position when hosting entertainment events to the public. If they do that occasionally, they can give temporary event notices for up to five occasions a year. If their plans are more ambitious, they need to obtain a premises licence that should cost no more than £100 initially and £50 or so each year.

Again, as in the case of schools, the key is where the entertainment is intended to be provided for the public, or where a charge is made and profit is the aim of the performance. We license commercial activity to ensure that the profit motive does not override public safety and public nuisance issues. We license places open to the public because every citizen should know that his or her interests will be safeguarded whether the venue is a school, prison, hospital, museum, gallery or a major commercial concert hall.

I shall explore the practicality of the situation. In my constituency there are a significant number of galleries. They often have small rooms no larger than the chamber that we are in, sometimes on two floors. At the beginning of a new exhibition there may be champagne receptions. The local Conservative association sometimes has drinks parties at galleries—I am sure that if there is a Labour association in my constituency, it does so too.

Neighbours of galleries in areas such as Mayfair and Belgravia understand that champagne receptions between 6 pm and 8 pm with 60 or 70 people present are part of life. The interests of residents are not going to be upset. That is yet another bureaucratic hurdle

that will diminish the civility of life for many people living near galleries.

I am not sure if the hon. Gentleman refers to private or public galleries. I was referring to public galleries where such activities are traditional. I went to the opening of the David Hockney watercolour exhibition in a gallery in the Bond street and Cork street area. Momentarily, there was traffic chaos outside. I was surprised that there were huge numbers of people in the building, which was on four or five floors and had very small rooms. I am not someone who worries too much about that sort of thing, but I felt that if someone had suddenly panicked there would have been a problem. That is a different matter.

I am sure that there will be considerations where similar circumstances occur—not necessarily in galleries of the type used by the Conservative party. I am talking about big public venues. If the hon. Gentleman wants to raise the matter of small, private galleries and other public areas, we should consider that point.

My hon. Friend the Minister has made it clear that if a hospital trust puts on an event to raise revenue for the trust—that could happen more and more with foundation hospitals—the event would be licensable. However, an event could be put on by friends of a hospital to raise money for some sort of charitable activity that was incidental, although still connected, to the hospital or an event could be put on by a patient support group—my local hospital often gives space and time to patient support groups and lets them use function rooms—that was simply raising money for that group. Would those activities need to be licensed?

That depends on the nature of the entertainment, who is there, and where it is held. As the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire reminded us when he moved his amendment, hospitals often do not have the sort of public space that is needed for big events, although they do sometimes. If an event were held somewhere else, such as a concert hall, it would be a different event altogether. Essentially, it would be a commercial concert, which could have been organised by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Jim Knight), who has great experience of such things. I have tried to describe the conditions that determine how an event held in a hospital would be regarded. I do not know what my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard) meant by the second type of event that he mentioned. I am not sure whether he was talking about a support group that was meeting to discuss particular issues or illnesses or something else. I do not know.

A coronary heart disease patient support group might obtain permission from a hospital to use a function room to put on some entertainment, purely to raise money for that group. Money would not necessarily go to the hospital, but it would help. Such groups are voluntary. They are charities. They might try to raise money for their funds

by putting a couple of players on, or something like that.

At the moment, the group would have to pay for a licence for using the space in that way, if it was used with a view to making a profit. Nothing will change under the Bill in that respect. If an event is held with a view to making a profit, we cannot distinguish between charities and other organisations. I have made that clear before.

Will the Minister give way?

Could I continue for a moment? No, go on.

I might be able to make my point more briefly now than I would be able to in a speech. Is it not the case that many organisations that put on functions with a view to making a profit are greatly experienced in so doing, whereas many charitable organisations, and particularly those that hold functions without a view to making a profit, are far less experienced in that area, when it comes to employing qualified staff and having the necessary impetus to remain in business?

We cannot frame law based on a gradation of experience. When my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset organised his first rock concert, he made a fortune. He had never organised one before, but he did very well out of it. He will not admit that, but we all know that it is true. The idea seems to be that we should make a law under which he would have been able to make an even bigger profit, simply because he had never organised a concert before. We cannot frame law on that basis.

Will the Minister give way?

Order. I do not want to go too far down this road, but as the hon. Gentleman has been referred to, he has a right to comment.

I am grateful. I have no wish to relive the first rock concert that I may or may not have organised. I simply want to say that if people are inexperienced in organising events, that is all the more reason to give them guidance through regulation. Licensing can be viewed as positive, guiding organisers through some of the safety and regulatory aspects of an event to ensure that it is a success.

That is a very good point and it reinforces some of my arguments on public safety and the safety of performers. The Musicians Union worries about that, which is why it has a special code of conduct, beyond the health and safety laws of this country.

Paragraph 14 was added with the best of intentions, but I ask the Committee to remove it in the knowledge that what we propose to do will be safer, more consistent and in the overall public interest.

The Minister's final remarks about his changes being more consistent illustrate the problem attached to his amendment and the arguments that he has used in support of it. He has referred to the need to license events for profit because of the risk of nuisance, public safety issues and concerns about the welfare of

performers and the audience. However, if we consider some of the activities that will not be licensed under the Bill, such as those that relate directly to schools or galleries, we can see that there are risks even if events do not take place for profit. Music practice is not covered by the legislation, but neighbours of a school in my constituency are very exercised about the noise generated there by music practice and samba band classes. Samba bands are popular in Fareham, as are steel bands. The band practice can create a noise problem, but that will not be covered by the regulations even though they will be made retrospectively, not proactively.

Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that such activities should come within the ambit of the Bill?

I am trying to point out the inconsistencies that underlie the Minister's argument on the other activities that come within the Bill's ambit. Some actions that cause equal risk to public safety or noise pollution fall outside the provisions. I am trying to highlight the inconsistency in the Minister's argument, not bring more activities within the scope of the Bill. Music practice, which can create noise problems, is not covered by the Bill. However, if music in a concert is too loud, that will be regulated under the Bill.

Free concerts in schools could involve a packed school hall full of parents, pupils and guests, and the health and safety issues there would be the same as those at concerts for a profit. Again, it seems inconsistent to regulate one type of activity but not another.

I am sorry, but schools have to have a clearly laid-down health and safety policy, usually instigated by the local authority through the governing body. That would cover activities in school halls.

The hon. Gentleman has made the point himself. Given that health and safety procedures are already in place for one set of not-for-profit activities, why cannot the same health and safety regulations simply be used for events designed to make a profit whose underlying activity is exactly the same? Whether a concert is free or money is exchanging hands, the underlying activity is the same. Why should not the same health and safety regulations apply to both?

We have mentioned galleries and the need for commercial events at galleries to be regulated. However, galleries already operate on a commercial basis and have huge crowds entering them, so the same health and safety issues are already there. Anyone who went to the Monet exhibition at the Royal Academy on a Saturday will have been struck by how many people were milling around there, yet the Minister argues that galleries are not capable of managing an entertainment without having additional regulation and bureaucracy imposed on them. They manage the same sort of activity during their ordinary day without having to apply for a licence under the Bill.

I am concerned that the arguments used to justify the deletion of paragraph 14 do not add up when one applies the same rationale to other activities.

I am grateful to you, Mr. Gale. You have given us the opportunity to have a wide-ranging debate on the amendment.

As I said, the schedule is based on an entirely wrong-headed approach to regulating entertainment. It is based on the belief that an activity can be analysed and categorised and that judgments can be based on that; it does not focus on how to analyse the ills that may be caused and prevent those from affecting neighbours and the spectators and audiences at entertainments.

I am concerned about the Minister's approach to paragraph 14. As my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) mentioned earlier, it replicates his approach during the previous sitting, which was to consider the most extreme example and use that as a reason for striking down an amendment made in another place. The Minister could have adopted a much more constructive approach by saying, ''There are one or two problems with the amendment and we propose to deal with those problems by tabling further amendments.''

If the paragraph had the construction the Minister placed on it, he would be justified in tabling further amendments to exclude from its ambit raves organised by student unions. That does not, however, justify making licensable a nativity play held with a view to obtaining some extra money for the school transport fund, to assist those who cannot go on school expeditions. People would be covered by the legislation if they organised a nativity play and charged £2.50, instead of £2, for friends and parents of pupils and took the view that the £2 would cover the cost but charging £2.50 would give a little extra profit for another good purpose.

It is absurd to treat a nativity play the same as a student union rave. However, that is the approach that the Minister has taken. It is no good him saying that such a play would only cost the organisers £20. The fact is that people do not want to get involved in arguments about licensing and whether there would be a profit—they do not want to deal with the bureaucracy.

The Department for Education and Skills is publishing documents explaining how to remove bureaucracy from teachers but the Minister is loading additional bureaucracy on to them. He will say that it is not additional, because it is already there. However, I would be surprised if there were many nativity plays in my constituency that were regarded as licensable entertainment by either their promoters or the local authority.

Why does the Minister constantly pick the worst possible interpretation of their Lordship's amendments and use that as a reason to strike them down, instead of trying constructively to make them work better? The answer is that he is advised, or he has concluded, that his Bill is perfect in all practical possibilities and cannot be improved, however many days we spend trying to improve it. That is an unfortunate approach.

I do not see how the provision of a nightclub is directly connected, for the relevant purposes, to the activities of the establishment. The activity of an educational establishment is education and the promotion of dances, raves and nightclubbing is not directly connected to that, unless it is done as part of a course of education. I do not think that it would be licensable even if that were the case, because elsewhere the schedule suggests that an activity directly related to a course of education is not licensable.

Therefore, it seems that one can promote a profit-making nightclub if one happens to be on the kind of course that the hon. Member for South Dorset did not need to go on before undertaking his promotion—many people go on such courses nowadays. However, if not, one cannot promote an event in the same building, for just as many people, that makes just as much noise and has the same health and safety threats and involves alcohol consumption. That would be an absurdity. Is my interpretation of the Bill correct? The Minister should look again at the paragraph. He has already promised my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster that he will do so for other purposes. The Minister should consider whether he could improve on it, rather than simply tear it out of the Bill.

Profit is another motivation of which the Minister is clearly suspicious. [Interruption.] Well, he is suspicious that the motive of profit—[Interruption.] He snorts and says, ''Oh.''

It is a sigh.

That is a more favourable interpretation. The Minister says, in so many words, that profit is a motivation that can override concern for health and safety, although other motivations, he assumes, do not. I do not think that the profit motive is so dangerous that it is likely to lead to greater carelessness among those organising such events than among those putting on charitable or other activities. I do not know why the Minister cannot accept that people who have a long track record of putting on such events may be far better qualified to do so than those who are doing so for the first time.

I find it difficult to understand why the Minister says that we cannot frame law on the basis of experience. In relation to personal licences, he has framed law on the basis of, if not experience, at least qualifications. I assume that one of the licensing authority's considerations when deciding whether to award a licence is the experience of those promoting the entertainment. The approach taken in the Bill is entirely inconsistent and open to many arguments. The Minister should reconsider his amendment.

To draw on the example given by the hon. Member for Waveney, a concert held in a hospital canteen to raise money for a major item of hospital equipment, promoted by the friends of the hospital, would be a licensable activity. That is what the Minister is saying. I attended an event of exactly that kind just before Christmas.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, if the event were of sufficient scale and the audience were big enough, one would need to ensure that it was properly organised by some licensing regime? Otherwise, we could end up with more people in hospital as a result of that event.

The hon. Gentleman put his finger on it when he said that that would be the case if the event were of sufficient scale and the audience were big enough. However, the event does not have to be on any particular scale to be licensable. Because it is promoted not by the hospital but by the friends of the hospital, it is licensable if it makes even a penny—not of profit, but of income. It is the fact that it is the hospital, and not an organisation such as the friends of the hospital, that is promoting the event that makes it unlicensable.

Again, I am afraid that the Minister has dug a pit for himself, and the further amendments that he has tabled make the pit deeper and deeper. I fear that a host of worthy events will be brought within the ambit of the legislation. I spoke to the chief executive of the local authority in my constituency yesterday. He feared the same. We may have misinterpreted the legislation. If the Minister can give assurances, I shall be much happier than I was when I stood up.

I do not intend to say too much about the rest of the Bill, but there are one or two things I would like to say about the schedule and I am mindful of your guidance, Mr. Gale. If I am going to say them, I need to say them now.

It is evident from what we have heard over quite a few hours that the Government, and the Minister in particular, are committed to a clear, straightforward, simple and coherent licensing regime that protects the public, and we cannot doubt the Minister's desire to see entertainment of all kinds flourish. I welcome the proposal for a one-stop shop and the simplicity of just ticking a box. However, I have some doubts that a local authority will always make life as simple as that. I have a concern, which I experienced when working in local government, about local authorities' capacity to make a meal of a small number of objections, or of relatively trivial objections. It only takes one over-zealous officer employed by an authority to lead to a long and protracted process to achieve something simple.

One's view of the likelihood of that happening depends on where one is in the country. In my part of the country, there is a number of typically small market towns. There is not much entertainment in those towns, because a lot of the people who live in the towns—sometimes characterised as being more elderly—do not like to have any. At the moment, there can be small levels of entertainment under the inconsistent, incoherent two-in-a-bar rule. I fear that in such communities, when those activities become licensable, there will be objections. There will be objections from elderly people purely because they do not like anything happening at all. [Interruption.] I can see it. I understand their point of view but one has to have a balance.

In many local authorities, the bulk of the elected members are themselves retired. The probability is that some licensing committees in some parts of the country will be greatly influenced by objections from people who do not want anything happening. I fear that, in some of the smaller communities, there will be no entertainment at all, and young people will pile into cars or other vehicles and go to larger towns in pursuit of entertainment, often, I have to say, with disastrous consequences. Some of the roads in my area are littered with floral memorials to people who have died in accidents but I accept that other influences are involved in such accidents.

It will come down to the guidance. I tend to think that we will need rather magical guidance. The Minister said that the guidance would need a strong dose of common sense. I hope that he can deliver that. I fear that we are left with a schedule that contains inconsistencies. There is an inconsistency between, for example, the status of a small live gig that would be licensed and a broadcast event on a big screen with a large audience that is not licensable. There is an inconsistency between a small live gig and an incidental performance. I understand from what I heard that if an unknown piano player were playing in the bar and a sign outside said that he was playing there on that Thursday night, that event would be licensable. On the other hand, to take a name that we have all heard of, if John Dankworth turned up on Thursday night and, because word had got around that he was going to do so, a lot of people turned up to see him play, that could be regarded as incidental. There is an inconsistency in that.

There is also an inconsistency between the small live gig and other activities that we have discussed under this schedule that are not to be licensed, such as comedy and martial arts. The argument that there is not an inconsistency was based on the claim that no problems have ever been reported with comedians and martial arts. However, I cannot find data or other evidence that shows that sufficient problems have been reported with small live gigs to justify licensing every one of them.

I do not think that that is the argument.

The Minister has been using it.

No, I have not.

My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney drew comparisons with material that might be broadcast through a television set and mentioned martial arts events. They have never been licensed but music played by more than two in a bar has always been licensed. We are not extending licensing: we are trying to make it easier for licensed music to take place. My hon. Friend should recognise that.

We have not been adding up the number of complaints about music or anything else. As I have tried to argue, other factors are involved in the performance of live music that may vary, and often it is difficult to differentiate between one form of music and another and what their likely effects will be. Our

argument is that it will be much easier if there is a level playing field for all music: that would make it much easier to stage music events throughout the country. The Musicians Union initially made that argument.

I thank my hon. Friend for that. He made that point earlier in the debate. That is another argument that he has advanced to square the inconsistency. There is not only an argument about problems and complaints. There is also the argument that it is not the desire of Government to extend licensing to other activities. However, the problem is that licensing is being extended to certain small live musical events that were not previously licensed. That is an inconsistency. That is why I argued for some kind of de minimis approach that would not result in small events that are currently unlicensed moving into a licensing regime. That was the essence of my argument.

I know that the hon. Gentleman shares our concerns that licensing for what in many instances are small gigs is the heavy hand of bureaucracy. Has he considered that grandfather rights could be given to those establishments that currently use two-in-a-bar exemptions?

I have not considered that. I have asked for a constructive approach to try to find some kind of de minimis approach that is justified and can work. I accept that amendments that have been tabled for this debate would not work, for the reasons that my hon. Friend the Minister stated. However, I believe that if there is a will to find a way forward, it could happen. It is important that we try to do so. If the proposed regime is deemed to be disproportionate to the problem that it is attempting to solve, that may exercise the minds of the human rights people who plague this House. It would be a shame if a Bill that is so well-intentioned got bogged down in human rights issues for want of a more proportionate or de minimis approach.

Does my hon. Friend not agree that this legislation will make it easier for venues to put on performances? At the moment, if a venue of whatever size wants to put on a public entertainment, it has to have an alcohol licence if it wants to serve alcohol and an entertainment licence, which is very expensive. For example, in the city of Newcastle the average cost was about £400 when I used to deal with those licences. This measure will open up a lot of venues that under current law do not go to the trouble and expense of having a public entertainment licence. The number of venues may rise, not fall, because of this legislation.

I agree with my hon. Friend, which is why I began my remarks by saying that I welcome the one-stop-shop approach and the simplicity of the regime being proposed. That regime has much to commend it. I have just tried to draw attention to what I believe are one or two small problems that I hope can be dealt with. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will think further about them and, at a later stage, come up with some solutions.

I call the Minister.

I do not wish to make a speech.

May I use this opportunity to wind up my comments on the amendment and to range a little more widely, as there will not be a stand part debate?

Having listened to the Minister's comments, I cannot accept that our fairly modest amendment is reckless in the extreme or will produce extreme results. It is an attempt to provide a sensible and practical interpretation of what is entertainment and should be regulated. Many of my colleagues have put their fingers on the button. My hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) pointed to a distinction being made here: an event may be in a crowded hall, but as long as it does not make a profit it is deemed to be all right, whereas if a £2 profit is made, it is deemed to be either unsafe or a nuisance. That is illogical.

Let us look at a school putting on a function. It will be wondering whether it has to apply for a licence. It has a hall and a capacity. If it is putting on a Gilbert and Sullivan production, does it know whether it will pack the hall out every night? Of course not. It needs to set a charge so that it does not make a profit but just covers its cost. How does it determine that? How does that school determine how much to charge and evaluate how many people will turn up, not just on one night but over a week?

The Minister seems to be saying that if that school does not make a profit, that is acceptable but if it does make a profit the event should have been licensed. That is the inconsistency that the Opposition cannot make head or tail of. The issue is not just the charge made but whether there is a profit. If the school inadvertently makes a profit because it has not made the right calculations, what happens then? Will there be a fine? Will the local authority come round and say, ''We have checked your numbers and your books''?

No.

So the local authority will not police that. Why, then, would the school bother in the first place even to think about applying for a licence?

It seems to my colleagues and me that capacity is the key. According to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones), who is experienced in such matters—there is no doubt in our minds that he speaks with authority—if there are health and safety requirements in situ for an establishment, including a school, those will deal with the safety aspects of having people sitting in the school hall. Those must already have been taken into account.

Mr. Jones indicated assent.

The hon. Gentleman is nodding his head. So we know that there are capacity limits. We know that someone has checked the fire doors. We know that the school has a fire certificate. Why, then, are we adding another tier of bureaucracy? Our amendment is a simple attempt to find out why the Government intend to do that. The Opposition have not heard any sensible arguments to justify it. The Minister said that if a provision is ambiguous, he will do something about it.

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will in a moment.

The Minister implied that he would do something about that in the guidance but the measure is ambiguous. It is not clear-cut.

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman has not once mentioned what constitutes an educational establishment in the amendment. He has not mentioned universities or further education colleges—

I am coming to them.

Perhaps he will—I am glad.

The rules that may apply at any given time to a school hall, or to another building in which an entertainment may be held, are there for what one might call normal school functions, which will sometimes include a school concert or carol service. If there were no compunction on a school to seek a licence for a completely different activity, which may involve the construction of a stage or the use of materials that were not normally used in school, would not it be better for there to be some kind of pre-notification? We think that that should occur through licensing, in order that everybody involved in such a performance—there will be performances that are different from day-to-day events—could be monitored properly by the responsible authorities.

I hear what the Minister says but he still has not answered the point about why the profit motive triggers the necessity for an application for a licence in the first instance. In many instances, as I tried to explain earlier, people would not know when they started whether they would make a profit.

I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman but my point is linked with the one I made initially about universities, colleges and the nightclubs in student unions. One cannot cherry-pick; the amendment has a lot of force. If activities that are dangerous to the public and the performers are to carry on, the licensing regime must be pre-notified or else there will be incidents.

The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) accused me of putting the worst possible colour on the amendments. Of course, one has to. One does not legislate simply for pick-pockets; one legislates right the way through to include murderers. The idea that there should be no enforcement because such things are largely unlikely to happen is wrong. We must have laws that ensure that the kind of disasters that we saw recently in American nightclubs do not happen in educational institutions, or in any other venues in this country. That is why we insist that there be a licensing regime.

Order. I am afraid I have to apply the same rule to the Minister as I apply to Back Benchers. The Minister has intervened on a number of occasions this morning. I gave him the opportunity to wind up the debate and he chose not to do so. I am afraid the Minister must obey the same rules as everybody else.

The example of the nightclub fire in the United States is an extreme example; my hon. Friends have pointed out on more than one occasion that the Minister has used extreme examples. We have

regulations that would have prevented such a thing, so to use that example is less than fair; I will not say less than honest—the Minister knows what I mean.

The amendment that attaches to educational establishments says:

''for the purposes directly connected to the activities of the establishment.''

Those are educational purposes connected with what the establishment does. I do not see how the discos, raves and bars associated with some universities are directly related to the purposes of the educational establishment. If the Minister feels that the amendment falls down because of our terminology regarding educational establishments, and that it would have been better to use the word ''institution'', why does he not table an amendment to solve the problem? He does not want to do that.

Dr. Howells rose—

Let me carry on for a little while longer.

The Minister and those behind the legislation have set their minds against the proposal. They seem to feel that there must be catch-all legislation that allows nothing to fall through, even though there is no public safety issue, there are no complaints and no real public nuisance. They say that those events must be included, because it would be unfair to allow some to escape and not others. The Bill is there to protect the public. If there is no public safety and nuisance issue, why are we legislating? Why are we forcing people to jump through these hoops, which in many cases are unnecessary? That problem lies behind the whole schedule.

The students union in Durham is in the centre of the city and is an integral part of the university and so is the students union at Newcastle university. Noise and public safety issues will clearly arise, but the students union in Durham would have something to say if its activities could not be licensed. Therefore I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. A public nuisance could be created in certain circumstances.

I thought that I had covered that point, but to ensure that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) understands what I am saying, I shall repeat it.

We are not saying that where there is a public nuisance or a public safety issue there should not be legislation or a licence. We argue—this is the reason for the wording of the amendment—that the students union is not directly connected to the purposes of the educational establishment. It is an associated activity, but it is not directly connected. It is there for student socialising. It is not there for an educational purpose, unless the hon. Gentleman wants to argue that a students union is educational. Is he going to do that?

Quite a few rooms in the students union at Durham university are used for educational purposes, including, for example, speeches by eminent politicians of both political parties.

That is a ridiculous point, and I shall not even answer it.

I shall offer another real-life example that addresses the educational element of the amendment. I spent a happy 18 months working in Basingstoke on the campus of a sixth-form college, managing an arts centre in an auditorium provided for the educational purpose of the college's theatre arts courses, but also used for commercial purposes as an arts centre. Under the amendment, the arts centre would be on the premises of an educational establishment for educational use, but because we were also using it for commercial purposes extra technology and risk were attached to that use.

Order. Having gently chided Front-Bench Members, I should gently chide those on the Back Benches too. Hon. Members must try to restrain themselves from making interventions during interventions. I appreciate that sometimes a slightly longer intervention may prevent a much longer speech and the Chair is prepared to be reasonably tolerant, but by the same token we must try to stick to the ground rules.

While I am grateful for your protection, Mr. Gale, I am happy to take as long an intervention as is necessary—

Order. The hon. Gentleman may be, but the Chairman is not.

I am grateful for your stricture, Mr. Gale.

In more ways than one, we have achieved our aim of having a thorough debate to ensure that the schedule is tested to destruction—we are getting fairly close to that.

At the heart of the amendment lies the problem of understanding what is involved in ticking the magic box on entertainment licences. I am sure that it will be easy to go through the application form, tick the box and send the form off to the local authority. The Minister would have us believe that, winging back by return of post will come the licence that says, ''You are allowed to have entertainment. It costs you no extra to your alcohol licence.'' Therefore, the case is made that it is easy, it does not cost any money and all the rest of it. What specifically will come back on an entertainment licence? Will it say, ''Your establishment can only be used for X number of people at any event'', so that a maximum is placed on it? Will it say, ''Your establishment must take these safety precautions and you will need a fire certificate from the fire authority to substantiate that''? Will it say, ''Your establishment must have health and safety issues and regulations properly determined''? Those may already be in place but they still have to be substantiated. What happens if one wants a variation? Does a person have to re-apply? Is there a cost for re-applying? What does the variation ask the licensing authority to do? Is it to increase the numbers? Is it to say, ''I'm only putting on small bands or the odd stand-up comedian as my entertainment, or occasionally the Joe Loss orchestra''—all 45 of them, or whatever it is? Will the licence specify what can or cannot be done? It is not going to be that easy.

In all the schedules about entertainment, the Minister has not told us exactly what would go on an entertainment licence application. I hope that he will help us clearly understand what is involved. It patently will not be as easy as he thinks, when most of the people out there—the people involved in entertainment—are still totally against what is proposed in the Bill. It is no good saying that the guidance will deliver and tell local authorities how to interpret it. If the guidance is going to tell them in the way that I have described, it will be incredibly prescriptive. Local authorities will have no leeway, no licence and no freedom to make interpretations on the ground in local areas, in response to what they see as local needs.

If it is not prescriptive, but will allow local authorities to interpret applications flexibly, then there will be postcode licensing in the way that we have postcode health care. In other words, local councils will do what they think is best in their own areas. I am not necessarily against that, but there will be no consistency around the country. There will be inconsistency, and contiguous local authorities may have completely different interpretations of entertainment licences, which I do not think is the Government's intention. However, I have read part of the guidance and I think that it is going down the road of being fairly prescriptive. Not only will it tell local authorities what they can and cannot do, but it will tell them what fees they can charge and no more. I have had representations from local authorities, as have many of my colleagues, saying, ''We can't do this with the fees that have been mentioned, we will be out of pocket''. It is yet another stealth tax on taxpayers—and another stealth tax on council tax payers, because the Government are as usual giving local authorities far more responsibility, all this extra work, and not delivering the grant to pay for it.

It is not just the authorities that are on our side of the fence, every Labour Committee member has problems with local authority finance—

Order. Even by my notoriously generous standards, this is going wide of the schedule.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Gale, for straying slightly into unknown, or rather important, territory.

We do not think that the Government have argued their case for this schedule. We have pointed out the inconsistencies and the illogicality. The Government say that in cases where there has been no licence before, there will be no need to license in future. We agree with that. We do not want to increase bureaucracy and legislation. We want to deregulate as best we can. However, it is all very well to say that where there has been no problem before there will be no inclusion—yet the criteria behind that exemption are no different from some of the criteria that apply to activities that are included. That is an inconsistency. The Government, in their attempts to have this all-embracing licensing of entertainment, have brought in far more regulation. There are many people, including this side of the Committee—and people involved out

there in entertainment—who are seriously worried that it will undermine our culture and the delivery of art in all its forms, not just music. The Minister has indirect responsibility for the Arts Council. That comes under his remit, no doubt.

It does not.

All right, but it comes under his Secretary of State's remit.

The Arts Council has said that the Bill will cause real difficulty. In fact, I think that it was the body that proposed the small premises exemption. The figure of 250 was decided on after an argument for a figure between 200 and 300. That was an Arts Council initiative. So, the senior body for the arts in this country is clearly telling the Government that the Bill is wrong and will do great harm. The Government are not prepared to allow the small premises exemption—they deleted that provision from the Bill on Tuesday—but they are not prepared to propose a sensible alternative, either. They have set their mind against real change in the Bill.

The Bill started off as the responsibility of the Home Office and ended up in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. There has been no pre-legislative scrutiny, so it has not been considered in as much detail as it should perhaps have been. It has been considered in the other place and at this late stage in its progress there are still inconsistencies and problems with it, but the Government do not seem at all exercised in addressing the issues. Not only will we press the amendment to a Division, but we will vote against schedule 1.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 9.

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 5, in

schedule 1, page 113, line 3, leave out paragraph 14.—[Dr. Howells.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 9, Noes 5.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put, That this schedule, as amended, be the First schedule to the Bill:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 9, Noes 5.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.

Order. My legendary powers of telepathy suggest that this would be a good moment to suspend the Committee until 10.20 am for the Programming Sub-Committee to meet. Hon. Members who are not on the Sub-Committee may leave the room, but those who are should remain.

Sitting suspended.

On resuming.

Ordered,

That the Order of the Committee [1st April] be amended as follows:

(1) at the end of paragraph (1), insert ''and on Tuesday 6th May the Committee shall meet at 4.30 pm only;'';

(2) in paragraph (4), leave out ''Thursday 3rd'' and insert ''Tuesday 8th'';

(3) in paragraph (7), leave out ''11.25 am'' and insert ''7 pm''; and

(4) in each of paragraphs (8), (9) and (10), leave out ''11.25 am'' and insert ''5 pm''.—[Dr. Howells.]

That resolution is complex as it has a knock-on effect through the sittings and I say to any Member who is in any doubt as to its precise impact that it will appear on the Amendment Paper.

It would also be courteous of me to tell the Committee that I indicated in the Sub-Committee that if for the sake of completeness it becomes helpful to sit either for an extra half an hour on Tuesday next—from 2.30 pm until 5.30 pm rather than 5 o'clock—I am prepared to accommodate that. However, Mr. Benton will be in the Chair, and he may take a different view. If he does so, I have also said that I am prepared to reconvene the Committee from 6 pm until 7 pm. We hope that that will not be necessary, but Members might find it helpful in terms of their diaries to bear in mind that the latest that we are likely to be employed on this Bill on Tuesday is 7 pm and it may well be earlier.

Schedule 2 agreed to.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.