Amendment proposed [this day]: No. 29, in page 1, line 18, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

'( ) In section 35(2) of the Housing Act 1996 (c. 52.) (duty to provide information as to standards of performance in connection with housing)—

(a) after ''shall'' there is inserted ''(a)'',

(b) at end there is inserted—

''(b) so far as the information referred to in paragraph (a) relates to the level of performance achieved by him in connection with the energy efficiency of residential accommodation within the area of a local housing authority, provide the information also to that authority in such form as may be so specified.

In paragraph (b), ''energy efficiency'' and ''residential accommodation'' have the same meanings as in the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995.''.'.—[Mr. Meacher.]

Question again proposed, That the amendment be made:

I remind the Committee that with this it will be convenient to take the following amendments:

No. 55, in page 1, line 18, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

'(2) For the purpose of enabling an energy conservation authority to discharge its functions pursuant to subsection (1) (a) above the appropriate authority shall, after consultation with such energy conservation authorities, representatives of registered social landlords, utility companies and other persons as the authority considers appropriate make regulations requiring:

(a) utility companies to report annually to a person prescribed in the regulations;

(b) registered social landlords, manager of government funded energy efficiency schemes and the Energy Saving Trust to report annually to energy conservation authorities;

in a format prescribed in the regulations on improvements in energy efficiency that result from measures taken by them (and different formats may be prescribed for different cases) provided that in the case of utility companies the regulations:

(i) shall not require any company to report to any energy conservation authority; and

(ii) shall not involve any company in any significant expense over and above that agreed under the Energy Efficiency Commitment; and

(iii) shall require that any information so provided by any utility company need be provided only on the basis of totals per postcode and for the avoidance of doubt shall not identify any particular address; and

(iv) shall be in a format to be agreed between the person prescribed and the utility company prescribed in the regulations, which agreement shall not be unreasonably withheld; and

(v) shall require the person prescribed in the regulations to report to energy conservation authorities; and

(vi) shall require that any information so provided to an energy conservation authority shall not identify any utility company'.

No. 8, in page 2, line 1, leave out 'stipulated' and insert 'prescribed'.

No. 9, in page 2, line 2, leave out 'them' and insert—

'the body making the report and in the case of the Energy Saving Trust also by the utility companies (and different formats may be prescribed for different cases).'.

I was in full flow when you struck me down just before lunch, Mr. Benton. I was completing my comments on Amendment No. 55, which as my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner) said, was tabled before Government amendment No. 29. I was responding to the question about not only registered social landlords but utility companies providing information to local authorities on energy efficiency performance.

Ofgem and the Energy Saving Trust are already in discussion with the gas and electricity suppliers about how they can provide information on a voluntary basis, and I understand that those talks are going well. I appreciate the importance of good, reliable information from the utilities, and I was at the point of making a commitment that, should the current discussions not reach an agreement that is satisfactory to all parties, the Government will consider sympathetically the need to develop an amendment on Report that would require the utility companies to provide information to the trust. In doing that, we shall consult the Department of Trade and Industry about whether existing powers cover that and, if not, we shall work with it, Ofgem and the gas and electricity companies to find how legislation could best achieve the desired outcome.

I hope that my hon. Friend is fully assured that the Government are meeting the requirements of the amendments. Not only the registered social landlords but the utility companies—either voluntarily or as a result of legislation—will provide the necessary information so that local authorities will know what improvements in performance have been made in energy efficiency in their area. On that basis, I hope that my hon. Friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

On behalf of the Official Opposition, I am happy to take the Minister's assurances at face value. He put his case in an extremely useful way. It is important that utilities are brought into the ambit of the Bill and are able to adhere to its letter and spirit. It is right for them to be given an opportunity of devising a way to do that that is satisfactory to both the promoter of the Bill and the Government. With those assurances and subject to what the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown has

to say, I am happy to offer our support to the Government.

I, too, am pleased by the Minister's assurances, and I am happy to withdraw the Amendment. My only caveat is that I wonder whether it would be wise to cover ourselves by introducing some reserve provision on Report in the event of voluntary arrangements being unsuccessful. If voluntary arrangements are agreed before Report but subsequently break down, we may kick ourselves for not having a reserve power in the Bill to enable the appropriate authority to take action to plug that gap. I leave the Minister with that thought.

I am glad to be left with that thought, but my offer was pretty comprehensive. We believe that these voluntary arrangements will work but, if not, we will introduce legislation. If we know that to be the position we can do so on Report. I realise that my hon. Friend is asking what will happen if a breakdown occurs after that. Rather than taking a reserve power for the Secretary of State, which I think is over-prescriptive and unnecessary, we intend that this information will be provided one way or another. If the discussions break down, which I do not anticipate, I hope that he will be satisfied that the Government are committed to ensuring that this flow of information occurs, whether through the Bill or any other legislation open to us. I prefer to leave it like that. I do not think that I could expect the Secretary of State to be encumbered with a duty that may be completely unnecessary and which we can cover by other means.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move Amendment No. 30, in page 2, line 3, leave out subsection (3).

With this it will be appropriate to take the following amendments: No. 10, in page 2, line 4, leave out '(1)(c)' and insert '(1)'.

No. 11, in page 2, line 11, leave out 'subsection (3)(a)' and insert—

'paragraph (a)'.

No. 12, in page 2, leave out lines 13 and line 14 and insert—

'paragraph; and—

(c) where a registered social landlord has taken over the ownership of housing stock from a local authority the authority may, after consultation with that landlord, set targets which are reasonable and compatible with any format the landlord is required to use in reporting to the authority in compliance with regulations made under subsection (2) for energy efficiency improvements to be achieved with respect to that housing stock (which may differ for different parts of the housing stock), and the landlord shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any such target is achieved so far as is reasonably practicable.

Each energy conservation authority may take such reasonable action as it thinks fit to ensure the targets are achieved so far as is reasonably practicable.'.

The Government are on record as supporting the principle that a registered social landlord who takes ownership of local authority

stock as part of housing transfer should work with the energy conservation authority to help to deliver that authority's ECA strategy. That will help to ensure that the benefits of the strategy are not lost when stock is transferred, and that action takes place. Obviously, it must be good practice that the new landlord should take the actions necessary to secure the improvement of the energy efficiency of the stock. We expect that of a local authority and I simply say that we expect that of traditional registered social landlords.

Annex H of the housing transfer guidance already states that both the local authority and registered social landlords should have in place arrangements for the registered social landlords to report to the authority on energy efficiency improvements made to dwellings in order to assist the authority in preparing the annual report that it is required to make under the 1995 Act. We believe that building on that through an agreement between the registered social landlord and the local authorities, which would then be reflected in the contracts signed between both parties at the time of the sale, would be a better route.

That would be a requirement of the housing transfer to which the Secretary of State gives consent and would be reflected in an enhanced version of the existing energy efficiency section in the housing transfer guidance. That guidance is reissued annually, allowing for further changes to be incorporated should Ministers wish, without a need to amend primary legislation. That route would also address the anomaly of how the Secretary of State would enforce the provisions in Clause 1(3) on the registered social landlords, as this would become a matter for the courts if either side failed to honour its obligations. Any registered social landlord taking on housing from a local authority would need to work with that authority to develop a housing transfer proposal plus a new landlord's business plan to ensure that the planned improvements to the stock contributed to our wider energy conservation objectives. I believe that this provision ensures that the objectives of clause 1(3) are fully met. I commend this Amendment to the Committee. I believe that it meets the objective of my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown and his supporters.

I appreciate everything that the Minister said. I am reasonably content with the question of future stock transfers. It is important that this should be right, given the pressure for local authorities to transfer ownership of their stock. The potential number of housing units involved could be extremely large and could therefore cost a large part of the potential energy saving. Nonetheless, I am happy with the proposed arrangements for future stock transfers and that reasonable energy conservation provisions will be built into the stock transfer agreements.

My Amendment No. 12 concerns stock transfers that have already taken place. In the past, the regime governing stock transfers has been less explicit and well practised, and many stock transfers have taken place without this provision being incorporated in the stock transfer agreement. It tries retrospectively to do something about stock that has been transferred in the

past. The amendment has the agreement and support of the National Housing Federation. The Local Government Association is also keen on it and would like to see it included in the Bill.

Although it may seem surprising that both bodies would wish to take on extra duties in this respect, it seems that they do because they clearly recognise the importance of dealing with previously transferred stock. My outstanding concern, as expressed in amendment No. 12—which I am not prepared to press to a vote today—is that energy conservation arrangements for previously transferred stock should be addressed. I hope that the Minister will give us some assurance on that point.

I am happy to give assurance. My hon. Friend makes an important point. We are not talking only about future transfers. As I said, we can make the inclusion of energy conservation standards in the contract a condition for future transfers. It is not appropriate for the local authority to set targets for the registered social landlord after property has been transferred to him, because once housing stock has been transferred from the local authority to a registered social landlord it becomes his responsibility under the terms of the transfer agreement.

That does not mean that where a transfer has already taken place we have lost control of improvements in energy efficiency standards. The registered social landlord will be subject to the Housing Corporation's energy efficiency standards. The Housing Corporation, in collaboration with the Government, will be concerned to improve those standards. There will be a separate discipline on registered social landlords if there has been past transfer; they are not outside the purview of a framework of consistently rising standards. On that basis, I hope that my hon. Friend is satisfied that a system is in place to drive up standards for past as well as future transfers.

I am grateful for the Minister's clarification. I apologise for arriving late; I was trying to get a breakdown of the stock that has already been transferred to registered social landlords. Would the Minister take a belt-and-braces second look at the consistency of treatment between previously transferred stock—some 600,000 properties—and the next wave of transfers? We must ensure that we do not create inconsistency in the treatment of registered social landlords and of other landlords or property owners.

If targets are set in the Bill, I have no doubt that they will be reflected in the new arrangements. Registered social landlords have told us that they are unclear about whether the Housing Corporation will require them to work to the same rules and standards under the new arrangement. I hope that the Minister will reassure us about clarity and consistency in the application of the measure. It would be such a shame if, inadvertently, we were to create the impression of confusion and disagreement, which do not exist.

I accept the Minister's point that it is not sensible to expect any organisation—including a local authority—that has transferred the ownership, rights and duties of a property to another party to assume the right to manage the property as though it were its own. However, in addition to achieving clarity, it is important that we create no disparity between different types of registered social landlord or between the properties that they own; I echo the point that the hon. Member for Nottingham, South made.

I do not like retrospective legislation. Generally, it is bad, because it breaks the concept of contract. However, we must not allow one set of tenants of a registered social landlord to be treated less fairly or effectively than another set. Therefore, I wish to be reassured by the Minister that, however it is imposed, there will be a set of rules that will have a common effect for all tenants of registered social landlords.

I am happy to respond positively to that comment, because I agree with its objective. I accept that inconsistency in the treatment of future and past transfers and of registered social landlords and other landlords would be wrong.

The Housing Corporation not only will require but has required higher energy efficiency standards. I said on an earlier Amendment that the Housing Corporation introduced new performance standards for RSLs in 2000–01 on energy efficiency and the renovation of housing stock. I said that that related specifically to the average standard assessment procedure rating of dwellings for all RSLs with more than 250 homes. The corporation will replace the current SAP performance indicator with a performance measure against the decent homes target.

That shows a steady ratcheting up of standards. However, without giving a commitment, I am happy to reconsider the provision to assure myself before Report that there is a level playing field for local authorities, RSLs and other landlords and that a mechanism is in place that can deliver that.

Amendment agreed to.

For the benefit of hon. Members who arrived late, I should point out that due to a ministerial appointment with the Cabinet, we are rescheduling the sitting. We shall break from approximately 5.15 until 6.45 pm. I neglected to mention earlier that the intention is to continue until 7.30 pm.

I beg to move Amendment No. 31, in page 2, line 15, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

'( ) The power of the appropriate Minister to give energy conservation authorities guidance under section 4(1) of the principal Act (guidance in relation to preparation of reports) includes power to give them such guidance as he considers appropriate in relation to the implementation, within such period as he considers appropriate, of measures set out in the reports there mentioned.'.

With this we may discuss the following amendments: No. 13, in page 2, line 16, leave out 'Secretary of State may' and insert—

'appropriate authority shall'.

No. 14, in page 2, line 17, leave out 'stipulate guidelines for' and insert—

'issue guidance with respect to'.

No. 15, in page 2, line 19, leave out 'for'.

No. 16, in page 2, line 19, at end insert—

'and the authorities shall comply with any such guidance.

(4A) Copies of any report referred to in section 2, 3 or 5 of the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 (reports by authorities on energy conservation measures to be taken by the authority and others, and progress reports) made by an energy conservation authority shall be made available to members of the public at the offices of the authority during working hours.

(4B) In this section—

''the appropriate authority'' means, in relation to England, the Secretary of State and, in relation to Wales, means the National Assembly for Wales;

''energy conservation authority'' has the same meaning as in the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995;

''registered social landlord'' means a body for the time being registered as a social landlord under Chapter I of Part I of the Housing Act 1996; and

''utility company'' means any body supplying gas or electricity to domestic consumers.'.

No. 33, in page 2, line 22, at end insert—

'( ) An energy conservation authority must, at all reasonable times, keep a copy of any energy conservation report, or report sent to the Secretary of State under section 3(2)(a) of the principal Act, available for inspection by the public free of charge.

( ) In this section—

''energy conservation authority'' has the same meaning as in the principal Act,

''energy conservation report'' means a report prepared under section 2 or 5 of the principal Act,

''the principal Act'' means the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 (c. 10).'.

Amendment No. 31 relates to the Secretary of State's powers to give guidance to energy conservation authorities on their energy conservation reports. The amendment proposes revising the wording for two reasons. First, section 4(1) of the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 already contains provision for the Secretary of State to give authorities guidance on the preparation of their progress reports. Secondly, the amendment will include under section 4(1) of the 1995 Act a power to give guidance on the implementation of measures set out in the reports.

Following a long and anguished debate this morning, I am well aware of Committee members' concerns about implementation and ensuring that the targets are met. The amendment will enable the Secretary of State to give guidance on the implementation of measures in connection with the Fuel Poverty strategy. We have appointed Mr. Peter Lehmann to be the first chair of the fuel poverty advisory group, which will advise the Government on delivery of the fuel poverty strategy for England. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

I do not have much difficulty with the Amendment, which has virtually the same purpose as the original subsection. Mine are purely minor drafting amendments, as is the Minister's amendment in effect. It calls for what we should like to see in the Bill but in the words of parliamentary counsel. As long as the amendment results in

consistent reports, which are prepared on a like-for-like basis, so that we can all see where we are going, I am content.

I echo the point about consistency. That is extremely important. If we are to be able to compare, we must be able to contrast. However, we cannot contrast and understand information unless we are given it in the same format. I ask the Minister for an assurance. Will the information be made public and, if so, will copies be available to the public?

That is an important point. The hon. Gentleman pre-empts Amendment No. 33, which tries to do exactly that. The first part of the amendment places a new requirement on energy conservation authorities to make copies of their energy conservation reports and progress reports available to the public for inspection free of charge. Authorities are already obliged to publish their reports, but that is not to say that they are always readily accessible to interested members of the public. I am sure that hon. Members agree that it will be in the interests of local accountability and access to information for the documents to be open to public inspection and to be readily available. That is our intention, and I hope that that answers the hon. Gentleman's question.

I see in Government Amendment No. 33 that the documents are available to the public for inspection free of charge. Some of the reports are fairly complex and take some time to read. One may need to take them away to compare them with others. Will the public be able to make copies of them?

I am not sure whether we have decided yet, but my view is that as long as the documents are not excessively voluminous, there is no reason why a member of the public cannot take away what he can freely read. The intention is that they should be made freely available. I know as a Minister that one must always be careful about making a promise, as one can be told about conditions that may make fulfilling that promise difficult. I will write to the hon. Gentleman, but I believe that the answer is simply yes.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move Amendment No. 32, in page 2, line 20, leave out subsection (5).

With this it will be convenient to take Amendment No. 17, in page 2, line 20, leave out 'pursuant to this Part' and insert—

'under this section'.

It is amazing what progress one can make when there is broad agreement.

Subsection (5) requires regulations made pursuant to part 1 to be made by statutory instrument. The Amendment proposes that it should be omitted, as it would not be needed in the light of amendment No. 29, which proposes that the regulation-making power under Clause 1(2) is omitted. I realise that I have the great advantage of having a Government brief, as it is not always easy to follow explanations. However, I hope that my explanation is understood. There is no

other regulation-making power in part 1, and the subsection is redundant for that reason.

Once again, I have little difficulty with the Government Amendment and I have no wish to press my amendment No. 17.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made: No. 33, in page 2, line 22, at end insert—

'( ) An energy conservation authority must, at all reasonable times, keep a copy of any energy conservation report, or report sent to the Secretary of State under section 3(2)(a) of the principal Act, available for inspection by the public free of charge.

( ) In this section—

''energy conservation authority'' has the same meaning as in the principal Act,

''energy conservation report'' means a report prepared under section 2 or 5 of the principal Act,

''the principal Act'' means the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 (c. 10).'—[Mr. Meacher.]

Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.