Clause 5 - Offence of using unlicensed security operative

Part of Private Security Industry Bill [Lords] – in a Public Bill Committee at 6:19 pm on 24 April 2001.

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Photo of Mr Nick Hawkins Mr Nick Hawkins Conservative, Surrey Heath 6:19, 24 April 2001

I have no doubt that during your long and distinguished parliamentary career, Mr. Winterton, somebody has used the same pun about your Christian name, which I share. I hope that both of us will always be in the nick of time.

There was no debate at all on the clause during the Committee stage in another place, and there was only a brief explanation, without debate, of a minor Government amendment to clause 5. That amendment introduced the word ``conduct'' to clause 5(3), whereas in the first draft of the Bill the word ``activities'' appeared. That was the only matter raised in relation to clause 5 in another place, and not debated, because Lord Bassam moved the amendment on Report. We are in the unusual position whereby the Minister will no doubt have a detailed briefing from his officials that has not hitherto been used. I hope that it will now see the light of day. There are one or two issues in relation to clause 5 on which the Opposition want to probe the Minister.

The clause creates a new criminal offence of using an unlicensed security operative. The Opposition are concerned about how the new offence will be enforced. When the Minister responds to the debate, I hope that he will be able to tell us whether the Government envisage that the new Security Industry Authority will take on an enforcement role in relation to the provision. Do the Government anticipate that the new authority will undertake its own investigations? Will it bring its own prosecutions, or will it delegate those matters to the police? That would concern us, because the Government have already overburdened the police. Despite the bogus figures trumpeted by the Government yesterday, Opposition Members are aware that there have been greater and greater strains on the police, and that they have found it more and more difficult to recruit.

What discussions have the Minister or his officials had with senior police officers? It would be helpful if he would write to members of the Committee, if he cannot tell us today, to set out what meetings he has had, with whom in the police, at what level and on which occasions. It would also be helpful if the Government were to say whether their officials have yet made an estimate of the number of prosecutions in a calendar year that might be brought under the provision.

I also want to probe the Minister briefly on the question of defences. In considering this new offence—unusually, in a Committee, I am probably the only lawyer here—