I have received notice from the Minister for Communities that he wishes to make a statement.

I wish to make a statement on the future provision of winter fuel payments in Northern Ireland. Although I already provided a written ministerial statement to the Assembly on 30 August, I am making an oral statement to the Assembly today in order to give the House an opportunity to express its views and for Members to ask questions on behalf of their constituents, many of whom will be deeply impacted on by the Labour Government's decision to limit winter fuel payments.

Let me be clear: the restriction on those payments is directly and wholly the result of a decision taken by the Chancellor of the exchequer. The winter fuel payment was introduced by a Labour Government in 1997, and successive Governments, recognising its critical importance to pensioners, have kept it in place, until now. This was a totally unexpected announcement from the new Government in Westminster. It was not mooted by them before now. It was not part of the Labour Party's manifesto, and, indeed, only a few months ago, when the Prime Minister was the Leader of the Opposition, he said that the winter fuel payment should be maintained. It therefore came as a surprise to us all that the Government would announce the removal of that important benefit, and I can confirm that my Department was given no prior notice of the planned change.

As Members will be aware, the principle of parity is reflected in section 87 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and it generally means that social security benefits are paid at the same rates and with the same conditions of entitlement across the UK. Where parity is maintained, expenditure on pensions and social security benefits in Northern Ireland is funded, in full, by the UK Government. Any deviation from the principle of parity that results in additional expenditure in Northern Ireland must normally be paid from the block grant.

The estimated additional cost to the block grant of maintaining universal entitlement to a winter fuel payment in Northern Ireland for winter 2024-25 is £44·3 million, and that does not even include any additional delivery or staffing costs. Moreover, it is estimated that an appropriate IT system to deliver universal winter fuel payments in Northern Ireland could cost between £5 million and £8 million for development and a further 20% of the development spend per annum for support and maintenance.

For the Executive even to consider breaking parity with the decision by the Labour Government, it will require significant cuts to Northern Ireland's already struggling public services. To those who glibly say that the Executive could make a different decision, I ask them this: what would they cut or what services would they postpone? It is simply not credible to claim that the Government have left the Executive with any other choice. Let me repeat what I have said a number of times since the Chancellor's announcement: I strongly disagree with and am totally opposed to this decision. It is wrong because it will have serious consequences for the comfort, well-being and health of older people across Northern Ireland; it is wrong because the health implications will put additional pressure on public services, which will face increased burdens; and it is wrong because, in removing benefits from those who do not need them, those who are just above the threshold become collateral damage.

I have made clear to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions my total Opposition to this decision, and I have outlined the detrimental impact that it will have on many people in Northern Ireland. I have raised this issue with other Ministers in the UK Government, and, as an Executive, we have written to the Prime Minister to express our grave concern.

Even at this late stage, I urge the Government to reconsider. We are all aware of the incredibly difficult Budget situation that we find ourselves in. We have had to make choices in our Departments that, ordinarily, we would not like to make, but this decision is wrong, and I hope that the Government will recognise that.

In the meantime, it is extremely important that people ensure that they are receiving all the benefits that they are entitled to. I therefore encourage everyone to check their entitlement to pension credit at their earliest opportunity. That can be done by telephoning the Northern Ireland Pension Centre's pension credit application line. The Department's unique Make the Call wrap-around service puts people in touch with any benefits, supports and services to which they may be entitled, and I also encourage people to get in touch with it.

This is a worrying time for many who are concerned about how they will manage this winter. The Government have got this wrong, and additional support will be required. I have already asked Executive colleagues that any Barnett consequentials for cost-of-living support this winter be ring-fenced so that we can do whatever we can to ameliorate the worst consequences of this harmful UK Government decision. I will keep the Assembly informed about how we can best help in that regard.

I commend the statement to the House.

Thank you, Minister. Before I call Members, you can see yourselves, Members, that everybody wants to ask a question, so I ask you all to be as concise as possible. I call Mark Durkan on behalf of the Opposition.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Minister for his statement. It is appropriate that he has come to the House to make an oral statement on this issue. We share the Minister's Opposition to and anger at a decision of the UK Government that will plunge thousands of pensioners further into poverty.

We in the SDLP recognise the constraints of parity, but parity does not mean "parrotry". Will the Minister tell us what, if any, alternatives have been explored and whether his Department will look at implementing income threshold criteria rather than basing eligibility solely on benefit entitlement?

When it comes to this decision, we face a number of problems in trying to take a different path from that set by the UK Government. Some have said that this is a devolved issue and that it is therefore entirely up to us to decide what we do, but the principle of parity is ingrained not just in the funding that is available but in the methods of delivery for us to make sure that we get money to those who need it.

We were in a position where we were not only struggling halfway through a financial year to find significant additional resource but we did not have the necessary IT systems to deliver the benefit that we might like to deliver or to find another way of means-testing the benefit. The delivery of a new IT system would take 18 to 36 months to complete, and it would come at additional cost. We were not able to use the existing DWP system, and, if we were to do it manually, it would require 150,000 man-hours of work by my officials, which we simply could not do. So, although people are saying that this was a decision for the Executive, in reality, it was a decision for the Executive in name only, in that we have neither the funding nor the mechanism to continue this. That is why it is right that we continue to pressure the UK Government to ensure that additional support can be made available or, preferably, to reverse this decision.

I thank the Minister for his statement. I also agree that this is a wrong decision.

The recent announcement by the British Government on the winter fuel payment cut will impact on people who do not qualify for pension credit but may, nonetheless, struggle to pay their fuel Bills. You mentioned amelioration: have you explored ways to ameliorate that impact should the necessary funding be available?

There is the potential for different funds to be made available to the Northern Ireland Executive. For example, an extension to the household support fund was announced by the Government last week. I have said to my Executive colleagues that I would like that money to be ring-fenced so that we can, where possible, provide a top-up. That is not something that we will be able to do in the next few weeks, because of the way in which the IT systems are set up. If there is the potential to do that, it will happen later. However, yes, it is absolutely right that if additional support is available, we need to ensure that it goes to those who need it.

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. We all know that this is an absolutely shocking decision. My granda wanted me to pass that on. The Minister referenced the significantly low take-up of pension credit and ways to check entitlement to it, but we all are aware of the lack of knowledge on, and the stigma associated with, claiming benefits. Minister, what can your Department do to address that, and how can you work with the likes of local government to coordinate services to help support people who are in that position?

The Member is absolutely right to raise the issue of awareness of benefits. I say it time and time again in the House, but I hope that Members take on board what I say and make use of the excellent Make the Call service. Through that service, we have been able to deliver millions of pounds of additional support to people across Northern Ireland. There should be absolutely no shame in claiming the support that has been made available to people, so I encourage people to make use of that service and the pension credit application line that I have talked about. I also encourage people to go to their MLAs, and if Members need any further advice on how they can help their constituents, I am more than happy to provide that.

Thank you, Minister: I really appreciate you outlining your lack of knowledge and forewarning of the cut, unlike others who sit on the same Government Benches as those who are driving the change in Westminster and then criticise the change at the Assembly. We want to see solutions. We want to see things that will make a tangible difference, and we want to understand what wider, targeted support measures for older people there are going to be, particularly in the absence of — I know that I harp on about this —

Question, please.

— an anti-poverty strategy. When can we expect an anti-poverty strategy, and will there be anything targeted at older people in it?

I know that there has been some commentary on that over the past couple of days, but the Executive are united and committed to ensuring that an anti-poverty strategy is delivered, along with a Fuel Poverty strategy. Of course, there will be measures within that that will target poverty across all age groups. However, it is fair to say that fuel poverty is a particular issue for older people, and that is certainly where my focus will be. In the extensive conversations that I have had, back and forward, with Executive colleagues over the decision, it is clear that there is Executive support for ensuring that the fuel poverty strategy is delivered as soon as possible.

The Minister, like so many others, will no doubt recall the memorable moment when former Prime Minister Rishi Sunak gave his resignation statement with the sound of 'Things Can Only Get Better' blaring in the background. Many held this Government up as being the better option. Clearly, that has not transpired to be the case for the many pensioners who have had this valuable payment that they rely on abruptly taken away from them. What engagement has the Minister had with the UK Government on increasing the minimum income threshold for pension credit?

Unfortunately, I did not have any prior knowledge of this whatsoever, but, as the Member said, I have raised those issues in subsequent meetings that I have had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other UK Government Ministers. I do not think that this is a decision that is right for older people in Northern Ireland, but I do not think that it is the right one for the UK Government either. It is delivering short-term savings that will create longer-term problems for them. It is inevitable that there will have to be a change made in relation to this, which may do away with all the savings that the Government hope to make. I will certainly continue to push the issues that the Member has raised.

Given the high levels of Fuel Poverty that people and families across the North continue to experience and the devastating news for pensioners that we are speaking about today, will the Minister confirm the additional actions that he will take to ensure that our pensioners are aware of and able to access their full entitlements? Will he confirm that the detrimental impact that we are talking about today will be reflected in the draft fuel poverty strategy, which is due out for consultation shortly?

There are a number of issues there. First, as I said, we need to make sure that the Make the Call service is well known and that people take advantage of it. However, I have also engaged directly with the Government to ensure that Northern Ireland is included in any campaigns that they are running to make sure that people are aware of the support that is available to them, that we are not left behind and that the work that they are doing in the meantime to mitigate the worst impacts of the decision is also reflected in what they are doing in the rest of the UK. This is a significant issue for the Fuel Poverty strategy, and it will have a significant impact. Therefore, it is right that it is addressed in the fuel poverty strategy as well.

Minister, this is a disgraceful decision, with Labour choosing to pick the pocket of over 10 million pensioners across the UK whilst there is continual wastage on benefit fraud to the tune of £2 billion and, indeed, a cash-busting £11 billion on climate-related foreign aid. Transparency is important. The SDLP, which sits as the Opposition in this place and enjoys a sister party relationship with Labour, sits on the Government Benches at Westminster. Will the Minister clarify whether he has received any letter or appeal from the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Matthew O'Toole, challenging this disgraceful decision by the Labour Government?

I have had no correspondence from Mr O'Toole on the matter. I note that he had time to speak to the media about it, but he certainly did not write to me or encourage me to take any course of action. Maybe he will contact the Labour Party directly, given the good relationship that they have through sharing the Government Benches.

Like you, Minister, I am totally opposed to Westminster's decision, and I encourage you to continue to make representations for support for vulnerable people, particularly older people, who are living in poverty. We are thinking about solutions, so can you confirm that you will include targeted and clear actions in your upcoming housing strategy that will deliver affordable warmth for pensioners who do not qualify for pension credit and, therefore, will not receive the winter fuel payment?

If I may, and if your diary permits, I invite you to Room 115 at 1.00 pm to meet Electrical Safety First to discuss with organisations the pressures that face the most vulnerable, including pensioners.

First, I appreciate the invite, but, unfortunately, I have other business this afternoon. Even at this late stage, however, I appreciate the invitation to the event, and I hope that the Member will keep me updated about what is discussed at that meeting.

There are a number of ways in which we can provide additional help on those issues through what we hope to do in housing and the Fuel Poverty strategy and the anti-poverty strategy more generally. Again, tackling those issues will not just be the responsibility of any one Department. Although I hope that the Government will reverse their decision and provide additional support, it is only right that we continue to do what we can to make sure that we limit the impact of fuel poverty in Northern Ireland.

I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber this morning. Rural homes are often more expensive to heat due to poor insulation and a higher dependence on fossil fuels. Minister, will you look at a specific range of measures to help pensioners who live in rural areas to heat their homes?

The energy strategy will look at that in order to make sure that people have access to the right information so that they can get what they need to make sure that their homes are as energy-efficient as possible. However, we might be able to provide other supports. As I just said, it is so important that Ministers and Departments work together so that we can look at the root causes of some of those problems. Fuel Poverty is so much higher in Northern Ireland because of some of the issues that the Member raised. We need to tackle the root causes of that, but, unfortunately, the Labour Government's decision has just added to what is an already very difficult decision.

Minister, what advice can you give to constituents of mine who now face many months of financial uncertainty coming into the winter?

I am glad that we have had that question because it allows me to speak again about the importance of making sure that people are getting what they are entitled to. I may have mentioned it, but there is the fantastic Make the Call service in my Department. I encourage MLAs to make sure that people are getting what they require.

For those in social housing, it is important that the Housing Executive and housing associations do what they can to help. If there are issues around that, I encourage the Member to contact me directly. Again, I would still encourage people to lobby the Government on this and get them to change their mind, because this was the wrong decision and it is simply not tenable for them to continue in this vein.

I thank the Minister for his remarks so far. Minister, in your modelling within the Department, have you worked out the number of people likely to be affected by this, and, with the impact of the particular fuel strategies that we have coming forward, how we are going to deal with that issue?

There are 306,000 pensioners in Northern Ireland. We believe that 249,000 will lose out and only 57,000 will retain their winter fuel payments. Anyone saying that this is about taking away a benefit from the richest in our society has got that wrong. Over 80% of those currently entitled to a winter fuel payment will lose it. Inevitably, that means that those on the edges and fringes will be deeply affected by this decision.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas.

[Translation: Thank you, Minister, for your statement.]

You outlined the Intervention, via the Executive, that expressed great concern regarding this announcement. What responses were received from that engagement and from other correspondence that you might have had?

I assume that the Member is referring to ministerial colleagues in Northern Ireland. Obviously, this was going to be a cross-cutting, controversial and significant decision, so it needed to be referred to the Executive. All Executive colleagues were in agreement on the need for this decision to be taken, albeit we all did it reluctantly. However, when we considered the inability of the Executive to fund this, and the inability of the Executive to deliver it through the current system, it was, perhaps, inevitable that all Ministers in the Executive came to the same decision.

I thank the Minister for his statement. Like others, I share my anger at the Labour decision. What engagement did the Minister receive from the Labour Government in advance of their decision?

I had no engagement with or warning from the Government until the day of the announcement itself. That is unusual because, when changes are made to social security benefits or payments, we would normally get advance notice so that we could prepare and change the legislation. In this instance, however, we received no advance notification.

Is there a specific communications plan that the Minister's Department is going to roll out with regard to the winter fuel payment?

As I said, I have engaged with DWP and asked that Northern Ireland is included in any further communications plan. We have a communications plan with regard to the help and support that we give. Clearly, that will need to be ramped up over the coming weeks to make sure that those who are eligible for pension credit but not getting it apply.

I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber on this issue. It is incredible that, in 2024, charities and organisations such as Libraries NI have warm-room initiatives. They say that elderly people are attending their services just to escape the cold. This is a cross-departmental issue, as has been said. There is an impact on health, with pensioners switching off their heating. Unfortunately, there is a narrative that the Executive reached this decision very easily, so can the Minister assure us that, before taking this decision, the Executive gave proper and due consideration to the extra pressures that would be placed on public services?

The Member is absolutely right to highlight the fact that, in recent winters, a considerable number of people have availed themselves of services provided, such as warm places to go to. That was all part of our consideration. We recognised what a difficult decision this would be, and the Member is absolutely right to highlight the fact that it was not a decision that was taken lightly. There was extensive engagement with Executive colleagues. I know that there has been some criticism simply because we did not meet in person, but the fact that we did not meet in person does not mean that this was not considered, that we did not look at all the evidence or that we did not properly consider what the implications would be. Unfortunately, this was an Executive decision in name only, because the Government did not provide us with the finances or the means to deliver the benefit as it currently exists.

I thank the Minister for bringing this issue to the Chamber today. It is good to hear him speak so strongly in Opposition to the decision by the Labour Government. What engagement has the Minister had with the Labour Government since their decision to limit the winter fuel payment?

I have had a number of meetings with Ministers in the UK Government. First of all, I expressed my concern directly to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Liz Kendall. I have also spoken to other Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office and in DWP. Of course, the Executive have written to the Prime Minister, on behalf of all Executive colleagues, to highlight our Opposition to this.

Minister, you have thrown down the gauntlet to MLAs today to identify what we would cut or what services we should postpone. Stormont is able to find £9 million annually for an Irish language Act, £1·6 million annually to maintain prison buildings at the Maze as a shrine to terrorists and over £35 million a year on useless North/South bodies and the North/South Ministerial Council. Those are cuts that I would happily make to ease the burden on our most vulnerable. Did the Minister or any of his Executive colleagues press for those revenue spends to be cut in order to cover the cost of maintaining the winter fuel payment?

The Member has highlighted not just resource spend but some capital spend. Even if we wanted to end all the services that some of those bodies provide, which include promoting Northern Ireland across the world, for example, and we were to cut all those, some of that would actually cost more money because you would be wanting to get rid of staff in year through compulsory redundancies. I am more than happy to listen to any Members outline their ideas about how we can save money in Northern Ireland, but a lot of what the Member talks about is staff-heavy and would require compulsory redundancies, which might actually cost more money in the short term.

I hope that the Member listened to what I said, because this is not just an issue of affordability, although that is an important part — it is an issue of deliverability. How do we ensure that the payments get to those who need them, given that we do not have access to the current IT system and a new IT system would take 18 to 36 months to develop, unless the Member is suggesting that I find 150,000 man-hours in the Civil Service in order to manually process all those benefits? If we are trying to pretend that this is simple and straightforward, that is simply wrong.

Minister, what engagement have you had with community and voluntary organisations and other interested stakeholders to support the Department in tackling Fuel Poverty? Do you feel that you could utilise their experience and knowledge, through a vehicle such as a fuel poverty task force, to help tackle fuel poverty?

The Member raises an important issue. There certainly has been engagement on Fuel Poverty and about what comes next, and that engagement is important, as is listening to people. Unfortunately, that is not what this UK Government have done, or if they have done it, they certainly have not shared any of that with us. It is concerning to me that, even though we are about to have a vote in the House of Commons this evening and the House of Lords tomorrow, the Government have still not released their impact assessment, so we do not actually know what the Government believe the impact will be on people right across the UK.

If they had done what the Member suggested and had listened to those organisations, we might be in a better place.

Minister, there is a lot of hand-wringing this morning, but you and your Executive colleagues are complicit in the decision. You made the decision to cut winter fuel payments. There was no gun to your head. You could have said no, but you buckled shamefully. What assessment have you and your Department made of the excess deaths that will definitely come this winter as a result of that brutal decision?

There you go. That just shows that Mr Carroll does not listen to anything that is said. I have set out two issues: affordability and deliverability. If the Member would like to come forward with his suggestions about how he would have found the money in-year, I would be more than happy to hear them. If he wants to give me his ideas about how he would deliver the benefits without an existing IT system or the ability to procure a new one in time, I would love to hear them. How does he expect to do it? He is pontificating, as normal —.

Your name is on the statement.

He is pontificating, as normal, but he has no answers. He likes to stand and shout from the sidelines, but he has absolutely no solutions and nothing to offer.

My concern is for those who find themselves in the position where they will not be able to heat their homes this winter. That is why we are doing everything that we can to make sure that those who are entitled to support get it and to put the pressure on the Government. The Member has given us no answers to the queries that I have raised, because there are no answers. There is no simple, straightforward possible way for us to do that. He is just showing his political immaturity.

I thank the Minister for his statement. I join my colleagues in confirming my Opposition to the policy change.

Will the Minister consider releasing any resources or additional support to the independent advice sector, which already stands in the gap and provides a lot of assistance to people experiencing severe financial hardship at this time? The sector is likely to see a huge uptake of its services over the months ahead.

The Member is right to highlight that point. We will get additional people coming forward to look for help not just from government support but from some of the independent advice services.

The Member will be aware of the budgetary constraints in my Department. Of course, we will look at all the bids that come in and the support that may be requested on the basis of need. Again, I encourage people to make sure that they take up the support and advice where it is offered.

Minister, it is sad to see that your Department and your Executive colleagues have raised the white flag of surrender on winter fuel payments. It is also ludicrous that some of your colleagues point the finger at the Opposition. Will you confirm that you did, in fact, receive a letter from the Opposition on this important issue and let us know whether your Department has any idea how many pensioners are entitled to pension credit but are not receiving it?

First, I confirm that I have received no letter from the Leader of the Opposition on the issue. Secondly, the Member raises the issue of the number of people on pension credit. I do not have the updated figures on that, but the most recent estimate is from 2022, when it was estimated that 26,300 people were entitled to pension credit but were not getting it.

Let me go back to the Member's first comment. It is worth repeating that the issues that we faced were around the affordability and deliverability of maintaining the benefit as we currently have it. I have set out the issues around affordability and the issue of deliverability around the IT system. In his question, the Member did not come back with ideas or a solution as to how he would deliver that. Instead, he came off with a pithy response about raising the white flag. If anyone really believes that, if Justin McNulty were in the Executive, there would be a different outcome to this, they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I thank the Minister for his statement. Everybody in the House shares his concerns. Does he share my concerns about this short-term cut by a Labour Government who did not have it in their manifesto and told lies to the public?

What will the impact on local services in Northern Ireland be? What will the longer-term outcome from the cuts be?

The Member is absolutely right: there was no indication whatever from the UK Government that this was coming. At no stage did they say that they intended to do it. Had they been upfront and honest with the public, there would be a little less anger right now, and perhaps people would have more time to prepare for the consequences.

I share the Member's concerns that the Government seem to be trying to make short-term savings for the Treasury, but what will happen is that there will be a greater impact on public services in Northern Ireland, and we will have to bear the cost. There may be more visits to GPs, more hospitalisations, more people needing care and more people dealing with other illnesses. The decision does not make economic sense either and is not good for people's health. That is why I again urge the Government to reconsider. They have not shared their assessment with us, but Labour did its own assessment in 2017 and said that doing this could cause 4,000 excess deaths. Perhaps the Labour Government should keep that in mind.

Before I call the next Member, I want to say that, if I have missed anybody who wants to speak, please stand. A lot of people stood earlier in the debate. I call Colin McGrath.

No one here doubts that this is a terrible decision that will be devastating for pensioners here. It will not be supported by us, here or in Westminster.

Does the Minister agree that the UK's finances are in a mess as a result of 14 years of Tory Government Budgets, which were often shoved through Westminster with the votes of his party enabling them to get through? If you are looking for a solution, Minister, will you consider amending the discretionary support that is available to people, enabling them to avail themselves of it should they find themselves trapped as a result of this decision?

Again, we have no answer from the Opposition to the question that I originally asked, which was this: how will we deal with the issues of affordability and deliverability? We have heard nothing at all from them.

Let us just talk a little bit —.

Discretionary support: I just said it.

Let us talk a little bit about some of the things that we have been able to do at Westminster. The triple lock was secured because of my party's Intervention. I wish —.

You propped up the Tories. You delivered the cuts.

I wish —.

A Member:

You sit with them.

I wish that it were the case that the Government would retain the winter fuel payment as well, but, thankfully, additional support will come to pensioners across the United Kingdom because of the decisions that we took at Westminster. Unfortunately, it is those with whom the Member's party sits who are cutting the winter fuel payment.

Thank you, Members. That concludes —.

[Interruption.]

Order, please. Take your seat. Thank you, Members, for your participation and cooperation. We got in every Member who wanted to speak in less than half an hour, which is exceptional. I thank Members for their cooperation in keeping questions concise.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I will also endeavour to be concise, but I wish to clarify a matter. We have had a bit of political badinage and back-and-forth in the Chamber about the SDLP's role. Unlike the DUP, we have never propped up an austerity Government, and, of course, the Alliance Party's sister party, the Lib Dems, brought in austerity in the first place. May I just —?

Mr O'Toole, I am struggling to find a point of order in what you are saying. Please come to it.

My specific point of order, Mr Speaker, is that a misstatement was made about the Opposition. The Minister was asked whether he had received a letter from the Opposition, and he said no, but he has received a letter from the Opposition.

He said that he had not received a letter from the Leader of the Opposition.

Not from the Leader of the Opposition.

I do not write every letter on behalf of the Opposition. Does the Minister write every letter on behalf of the DUP? I doubt it. He received a letter from the Opposition about the policy, and he did not respond to it. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

That was not a point of order, but the point has been made. I ask Members to take their ease while we change the Table for the next item of business.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker [Ms Ní Chuilín] in the Chair)