Covenant Reference Group

Private Members' Business – in the Northern Ireland Assembly at 12:00 pm on 6 December 2016.

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Photo of Caitriona Ruane Caitriona Ruane Deputy Speaker 12:00, 6 December 2016

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. I ask Members to leave the Chamber quietly, please. If they want to have a conversation, they should have it outside the Chamber.

The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Photo of Doug Beattie Doug Beattie UUP

I beg to move

That this Assembly recognises the need to deliver for the veterans’ community in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Executive to nominate a Northern Ireland representative to the UK-wide Armed Forces covenant reference group, which will be responsible for ensuring that the Executive are kept updated of issues relating to the veterans’ community in Northern Ireland.

This country is trying to move towards a brighter future — I think that we all agree on that — but we have a deeply troubled past. Therefore, I fully understand that any debate on the British military can be viewed as contentious. I know that you all have your prepared notes, but, please, I ask everybody to listen to what is being proposed before you come back on what I say.

Before I address the motion, I will speak to those people who predominantly sit to my right-hand side. I acknowledge that this is a difficult subject for you and that it is a difficult motion for you to support. I fully understand that you feel that those whom you represent and many of the communities that you represent have been brutalised by the British military, certainly in the 1970s and the early 1980s. I can fully understand that, and I reiterate what I have said on many occasions: if anybody from the British military has broken the law, they need to answer to the law. In the future, I hope that you will be able to stand up and say, as I have, that those who were part of terrorist organisations have brutalised our country.

Those impact statements are really something for later, and I do not want to dwell on them. I also understand that there are many in the House who have grave concerns about British military actions around the world in the likes of Iraq — I served in Iraq and fully understand the concerns; I also have concerns about that conflict — Afghanistan, Syria or, indeed, Libya. I ask for some balance in the debate and some understanding that we are not all bad. The British military helped to stop ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Kosovo, it helped to end genocide in Rwanda, it dropped aid to Yazidi Christians who were isolated on mountaintops, and it helped with the devastating Ebola virus in Sierra Leone. It also helps in this country; when a device is found somewhere, it is army technical officers who head out to dispose of it. Even today, members of our armed forces are helping the Afghan Government in Kabul, and we are deploying people from Northern Ireland to South Sudan in a peacekeeping role. That has to be applaudable. I ask for balance, but, with that balance, I have acknowledged how some may view the British military, and it is important to acknowledge that.

I have kept the wording of the motion as soft as possible because I fully understand the sensitivities with it. It is not about a political party; it is about trying to help vulnerable people in our community, whom we all represent. The armed forces community in Northern Ireland numbers over a quarter of a million people. That is serving personnel, veterans and their families and includes people who have served from the Second World War right up to more recent conflicts. I do not really want to argue about the conflicts because, in many ways, we need to point the finger at politicians as opposed to the military regarding the conflicts, but, if any incidents in those conflicts were unlawful, we need to deal with the individuals involved. Many of those veterans feel isolated because of the ongoing security situation in Northern Ireland. They are isolated and not coming forward for help.

It is important that we as an Assembly and as the politicians of Northern Ireland represent everybody in our community, regardless of their present or past employment. I have to say something; I will repeat it twice so that people really understand what I am saying. The motion does not seek to give service personnel or veterans an advantage. It does not seek to give them an advantage. It seeks to give them representation so that they are not disadvantaged because of their service. There are times when they are disadvantaged.

In 2011, the Armed Forces Covenant was instigated throughout the United Kingdom. It was instigated here in Northern Ireland. We are part of the United Kingdom; it is here. However, we are not represented. We do not have the ability to have oversight or to scrutinise that Armed Forces Covenant. We do not have that because we are not in the covenant reference group.

If we were in the covenant reference group, we would have representation, we would have oversight and we would have scrutiny. The group produces an annual report. We can all read it — it is an open-source document — yet Northern Ireland has had no input to it since 2011. That, I think, is wrong. The covenant reference group is a Cabinet-led group with representation from all devolved Governments except Northern Ireland. That is fundamentally wrong. It has representation from the MoD, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Education, Health and Transport Departments — the list goes on — and representation from Wales and Scotland.

What could such representation help us to do? The covenant fund is £10 million a year that we are able to bid for. We get our fair share, and, in the last 12 months, £450,000 has gone to Combat Stress and £600,000 to the Somme Nursing Home, but there are other worthy groups out there, including cross-community groups. This money has been used for cross-community groups, but, if we are not in the reference group, we cannot target it and we cannot direct it.

A Departments of Community Mental Health (DCMH) facility in Thiepval barracks is underused. Only four people have gone to it, because nobody knows about it. It is paid for by the MoD, so this motion would not cost the Executive one single penny. If we could open up that facility, we could get help for our veterans who are suffering from mental illnesses. That must be a good thing, and it could help to alleviate issues in our health service.

Nobody in the military believes that they should get housing above anybody else, but service personnel leaving the military do not even realise that they are entitled to bid for social housing in Northern Ireland even if they live in England. They do not know that they are entitled to points because accommodation goes with the job: when you leave your job, you are made homeless and are entitled to points. They do not know this because we do not have anybody on the covenant reference group.

On education and learning, again, there is no ask. When you leave the military, the armed forces give you £1,000 a year to help you to retrain. Those in Northern Ireland are not using it, and they need to be educated.

As I said earlier, this affects all corners of our society. I visit a 94-year-old World War II RAF veteran who is living in a care home. He is deaf, nearly blind and getting no support. I know that people across the border in Ireland who served in the British military during the Second World War and later could also use this support. Somebody on the covenant reference group would be able to target and help them.

In conclusion, representation on the covenant reference group would not bypass any of the devolved functions. The Executive would still have the final say. There is no bypassing; it is purely about representation, but it would give us a link to what everybody else has in the United Kingdom has, but we, at present, do not. It would keep the Assembly informed and give our armed forces champions, who are on each of our 11 councils, somebody to work to. It would allow us to know what was going on and make sure that we got our fair share of what comes out of the Government in Westminster.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker 12:30, 6 December 2016

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close, please?

Photo of Doug Beattie Doug Beattie UUP

I commend the motion, and I acknowledge its difficulty for many, but I ask them to listen to my words. I am using soft words, and I do so deliberately because I understand.

Photo of Brenda Hale Brenda Hale DUP

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. However, before I begin, I must declare my many interests. First, I am an army widow and receive an HM Forces pension. I am an ambassador for the ABF — the soldiers' charity — and a member of the community that we are debating today. I am painfully aware of how veterans and their families have contributed to and sacrificed for this society.

As we have heard, the Armed Forces covenant reference group meets with no input from Northern Ireland. Yet, as a jurisdiction, we play a significant role in our armed forces. Over 20% of the reserve regularly deployed in operations are from Northern Ireland, despite the fact that we make up only 3% of the entire UK population. We must not lose sight of the fact that the armed forces community is tri-service and multi-cap badged, and it comes from every section of our communities.

The forces covenant is an agreement between the armed forces community, the nation and the Government, and it encapsulates the moral obligation to those who serve, those who have served, their families and the bereaved, of which I am one. As Doug said, the covenant fund was set up giving £10 million per annum to fund the Government's armed forces commitments. Funding priorities are annually set by the covenant reference group, and we have no representation. There has been a further £170 million allocated to support covenant commitments since 2011, and, to date, as Doug has said, Northern Ireland has received £450,000 for combat stress and £60,000 for the Somme Nursing Home.

The covenant reference group was initially set up to oversee the implementation of the Armed Forces Covenant, which is chaired by the Cabinet Office. In an answer to my DUP colleague Jim Shannon MP during parliamentary questions at Westminster, Mark Lancaster, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Ministry of Defence, stated that there are unique challenges in Northern Ireland, but he was pleased to report that they estimate that 93% of the covenant issues are being enforced. I am sorry, but the number of constituents I am currently dealing with regarding veterans' issues indicates otherwise. Mark Lancaster went on to say clearly that they needed to do better and that this will be his focus in the coming year. I look forward to that end result and his active support. I visit my constituents in prison. I visit them in hospital when they have attempted suicide. I go with them to looked-after child (LAC) reviews where they try to keep hold of their children, and I attend police stations with them when they have issues with domestic violence and abuse through issues of PTSD.

I do not question the fact that more needs to be done in Northern Ireland to make veterans aware of the services, charities and Departments that they can have access to. Since my election in 2011, I have worked tirelessly with my party colleagues on behalf of my community. It was at my invitation that Lord Ashcroft's transition review team came to Northern Ireland. It met Ministers, senior personnel at 38 Brigade and representatives of the military charity sector. In his second follow-up report, published in November 2016, reference is made to Northern Ireland and the failings of the Armed Forces Covenant. He states that the Executive should appoint someone immediately to the covenant reference group.

On 26 October 2016, Kris Hopkins stated that it is up to the devolved Governments to make it work. Disappointingly, this shows a lack of understanding of the complex and multilayered issues that face the service community here in Northern Ireland. Those councils that have adopted the community covenant are to be applauded, however they do not have the same statutory authority as in Great Britain, and this results in the limited implementation of the meaningful application of the ethos of the covenant. They cannot compel the Housing Executive, the Education Authority or Health to consider years of service to the Crown as our colleagues in GB can when service personnel are transitioning to Civvy Street or need access to services such as education for themselves or their children or adequate clinical support for illness and life-changing injuries. We know that there is an open invitation for the Northern Ireland Executive to join that reference group, and, in fact, in October this year, when I spoke on 'Talkback' about this particular issue, my party leader, Arlene Foster, stated her support for me to be appointed to the group. A letter was sent to the Cabinet Office regarding this, and we are awaiting a response.

I want to put on record my acknowledgement of the work done by my colleagues at Westminster, my colleagues here in the Assembly and my colleagues at council level, and I absolutely agree that the needs of the armed forces community must be heard at the highest level of government. I thank Mr Beattie for bringing this forward.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

I listened to Doug Beattie and what he had to say, and I will be able to cover that. I approach, and Sinn Féin approaches, this from the point of view of objective need and equality of treatment. I have the Research and Information Service information pack that explains what the Armed Forces Covenant is about, and it is worth reading out the first couple of pieces of it. It says:

"The Armed Forces Covenant is an agreement between the armed forces community, the nation and the government."

Of course, the "nation" referred to is Britain, and the "government" referred to is the British Government. It continues:

"It encapsulates the moral obligation to those who serve, have served, their families and the bereaved."

As a republican, I do not find anything wrong with that. The British Government do have a moral obligation. It goes on to say:

"The covenant’s twin underlying principles are that members of the armed forces community should face no disadvantage compared to other citizens in the provision of public and commercial services".

I cannot find myself disagreeing with that either. Of course they have the right to all the services that are there for every citizen. However, it does go on to say:

"and that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given the most such as the injured or the bereaved."

And there, we start to move away from the ideas of equality and equal treatment. There is a covenant fund, which is dealt with further down, and it says that £170 million —

Photo of Naomi Long Naomi Long Alliance

I thank the Member for giving way. He has indicated that it would mean moving away from equality and equal treatment: does he not accept that objective need moves away from equal treatment? Equal treatment treats everyone the same; objective need allows resource to be targeted specifically at those in most need. It is not contrary to equality provisions to target those in most need.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

I agree on this: I have risen to speak on both issues — equality of treatment and objective need. They are complementary, rather than opposing.

In the covenant fund, there is £170 million from 2011. The document goes through a list of how that is used in different packages. In 2013, the British Chancellor announced that £10 million per annum would be allocated in perpetuity from the financial year 2015-16. People may think that that is good work or that it is not enough money and all that; that is a debate that, I am sure, Doug Beattie and others will continue. I understand where they are coming from — in particular, Brenda Hale. However, it will not be a surprise to the House that I do not agree with the interventions of the British Government — in fairness to him, Mr Beattie said that there was bad and good in it — and certainly not with many of the interventions that they have been involved in in recent history and ancient history in terms of foreign wars. He mentioned Iraq: remember that people were sent to war on the basis of weapons of mass destruction that did not exist. I agree with Mr Beattie that this is not an issue around the soldiers who went out and fought; it is an issue around government.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

I have already given way.

Tens of thousands have been killed in recent years; hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, have been injured; and, certainly, millions have faced huge poverty. We have only to turn on our TVs to see the refugee problem that we have. In my view, it has destabilised the area.

All of this, as you said, may not be the relevant issue. However, young men and women were sent out as soldiers and were killed. Many have sustained life-changing injuries. The Sinn Féin position is as described earlier: there are bereaved and injured from the conflict that occurred here in the North of Ireland. Unionists, if I may say this, cannot and will not agree to a pension for a small number of people relative to other conflicts — a matter of hundreds — who want to have a pension. They will not agree to the funding of the Lord Chief Justice's approach to coronial courts and inquests that, since we are talking about bereaved families, would bring some closure or, if not closure, alleviation of their pain. Some of them have waited for over 45 years. Coming on to the Eames/Bradley project, I remember that, when £12,000 was mentioned, not for compensation but for recognition of the suffering that victims had gone through, political unionism and the British Government took a fit at the idea that they would hand out any money at all for that.

There is a duty that includes combatants — I absolutely accept that — but it is much wider. It is a duty to all those who have suffered — civilian or soldier, combatant or non-combatant. We need to break the logjam of legacy for victims and survivors, and the British Government and political unionism can do that. Sinn Féin will oppose the motion on the basis of equality of treatment, which everyone should have access to, and objective need.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

First of all, I acknowledge the tone of the remarks of Mr Beattie and Mrs Hale. They struck the right note in relation to the debate and the issues that inevitably revolve around this sort of debate. I also acknowledge, in particular, that I have not heard any senior member of a unionist party refer to the fact that there are people in Northern Ireland, particularly people of the community that I and others represent, who feel, as Mr Beattie put it, "brutalised" by the actions of the British Army. I have not heard that sort of description. In my view, the experience was more than one of feeling that they were brutalised: they were brutalised by the British Army in many, many, many instances over the years. Nonetheless, I acknowledge that that was the tone and character of the debate that we heard. I also respond to Mr Beattie by saying that it was not just the state agencies who brutalised the people whom I represent; the terror organisations also inflicted an unwelcome violence on people across this part of Ireland.

I also want to acknowledge that, when we are speaking today, we are speaking about people in the Chamber who might have reason to rely on the covenant in terms of their objective needs. So, when we talk about the issue, we have to tread cautiously, because we are treading on the experiences of people in the Chamber and many, many people besides.

I have a view about the role of the British Army in Ireland historically and in recent decades. I do not intend to rehearse what that view is, except to say that it became very much a big part of the problem because military and paramilitary approaches were not the way to resolve the conflict of identity around which our conflict revolved. I also recognise that there have been many, many people in the British Army who fought in good faith and with sincere beliefs wherever they went around the world over the years, even though I would dispute what the political and military leadership directed them to do. Whilst I may differ with Mr Beattie and other people about the contribution of the British Army around the world, I do not dispute the contribution of individual members of the army to the causes that they believed in. I say that — I have said this before in the Chamber — because my great-uncle, who I am named after, lies in an unmarked grave on the Belgian coast at a place called Nieuwpoort, having been killed in July 1917 in the First World War. I have visited with pride the memorial that bears his name.

Photo of William Humphrey William Humphrey DUP 12:45, 6 December 2016

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that the debate is around representation? As Mr Beattie set out when proposing the motion, there is no added cost to the Northern Ireland Executive. Given the fact that the Member has just spoken eloquently about the fact that this touches even this House, should it not be the case that Northern Ireland is represented to ensure that the people who are directly affected have their voice at that table nationally?

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

Thank you for that intervention, and thank you for the extra time, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will touch on that in my concluding remarks.

It is our view — Naomi Long touched on this in her intervention on Mr Kelly — that the way to deal with any person who has particular requirements is on the basis of objective need. Over many decades, we have developed in Northern Ireland a policy and an architecture in order to ensure that objective need informs how people are responded to at public policy and state level. Maybe Mr Kelly will want to reflect on this: there is, if you like, special consideration for various sections of our society. The people who Mr Kelly speaks for on many occasions — prisoners — are given special consideration by way of funding from Europe. Our victims and survivors are given special consideration by the —

Photo of Alex Attwood Alex Attwood Social Democratic and Labour Party

I have only a minute. I normally give way, but I want to conclude my remarks.

That is not special consideration that creates some sort of hierarchy; it is a special consideration that is informed by the practice of objective need. If that is all that the covenant is about and, to go back to the point of the last intervention, if it is purely about representation and advocacy, I can understand why the argument has been made by Mr Beattie, Mrs Hale and others that there should be somebody representing Northern Ireland on the covenant reference group.

So, for all those reasons, the SDLP will not resist or oppose the motion. If that is the argument that is being made in good faith, we accept it.

Photo of Trevor Lunn Trevor Lunn Alliance

We support the motion. I congratulate Mr Beattie for tabling it and for proposing it in, in his own words, a "soft" way. I agree with his sentiments, and I also agree very much with Mrs Hale. I do not pretend to have the experience that either Mr Beattie or Mrs Hale has in this area, but I am prepared to learn. They both spoke remarkably well.

Should we be represented? Of course we should. This is a covenant that arises from the Armed Forces Act, which applies to the whole of the United Kingdom, and we appear to be the only part of the United Kingdom not represented on the reference group. Northern Ireland is getting some benefit from the various funds. We could perhaps continue to have no direct input into the reference group and hope for the best, but it would not make any sense to do so when there is a place there for us. I do not know what the objection is, because I have not studied it closely enough, but somebody seems to be objecting to this move. I hope that, on the basis of what has been said today, that objection will be removed.

Northern Ireland has done pretty well from the present arrangement. As we all know, £450 million has gone to Combat Stress in either this financial year or the last one, and I am told that about £1 million has been invested in Northern Ireland projects, which is 10% of the annual spend for our much trumpeted 3% of the population. So, we do pretty well. However, it is important that we are represented at the heart of this, and I hope that the Executive Office moves ahead to appoint somebody.

I appreciate that not all our population might be in total agreement with this. Mr Kelly, in his remarks, was very measured; towards the end he was less measured, but he sympathised with those who had been injured and bereaved, and I give him credit for that. Both Mr Beattie and Mr Kelly made the point that armies do not decide where they go to fight; Governments do that. If a soldier or an airman or a sailor comes back to Northern Ireland injured and needs particular treatment through rehabilitation, education, the health service or housing, it is incumbent on our Government, whether the UK Government or the Northern Ireland Assembly, to provide them with the very best facilities and treatment that they can, because we owe it to them.

Old sores take time to heal, but people who do not support this proposition might need to reflect on where we would be today had it not been for the actions of our armed forces through the centuries. We can stand here now and speak with freedom because we fought the good fight when it had to be fought, and we cannot forget about our veterans. This is a big debate in the States as well, but we should be able to deal with it.

The question of section 75 was raised. The implementation group — the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee — came to the conclusion three or four years ago that this was not a particular problem, stating:

"Section 75 is a piece of equalities legislation and that the first key principle of the Covenant is no discrimination, we do not necessarily see any opposition between those."

The MOD said that it had taken legal advice on the question of section 75 being in conflict with the covenant and had come to the conclusion that it was not insuperable, let us put it that way. There may be some slight difficulties, but, with a reasonable approach and a fair attitude, it can be dealt with.

If our veterans, the injured and the bereaved need special assistance to reintegrate and move on with their lives, the covenant, through its schemes, the covenant for communities —

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close, please.

Photo of Trevor Lunn Trevor Lunn Alliance

— the reference group, the charitable endeavours, the community grants scheme and so on, provides a way to smooth the way back into society for our veterans. I thoroughly support the motion. If it had gone a bit further, I would still have supported it. It is a good motion.

Photo of Philip McGuigan Philip McGuigan Sinn Féin

Unsurprisingly, I will be opposing the motion. I will be doing so on the basis that this Assembly needs to deliver for the whole community and all citizens in the North and not elevate particular groups for special treatment. On that basis, I look forward to the day when the Members who tabled this motion table a motion on an equality Act and a bill of rights for the North, and the implementation of both being supported by all parties and Members. That is the way to address inequalities if and where they exist, and I could support that.

To be honest — and Gerry mentioned this — I could support the first of the two underlying principles in the covenant that we are debating, that is that no disadvantage should be faced compared with other citizens —

Photo of Andy Allen Andy Allen UUP

Will the Member give way?

Photo of Andy Allen Andy Allen UUP

Would the Member not agree with me that, in stating that he would agree with the two underlying principles that Mr Kelly pointed out, in reality, opposing this motion goes against that? The Armed Forces covenant reference group is about ensuring that those who serve and have served, and their families, are not disadvantaged by virtue of their service.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Philip McGuigan Philip McGuigan Sinn Féin

I thank the Member for his intervention, but he stopped me short of what I was going to say in relation to what the second principle contained, which Gerry also addressed, and that we could not support. I cannot support it because the covenant itself states:

"special consideration is appropriate in some cases".

I cannot agree with that. I know there are Members who want to create hierarchies. Unfortunately, that is what this debate is about — in some way elevating the status of the British Army and its members in the North.

Photo of Philip McGuigan Philip McGuigan Sinn Féin

I want to continue.

I do not claim to be an expert on the employment obligations or additional services of duty of care provided by the British Army to its members. I have only my personal experiences and that of my community of contact with and knowledge of the special consideration that the British Army meted out here in the North.

I recognise, like others, the tone and content of Mr Beattie's contribution. For that reason, and for the reason that I have only five minutes to speak, I will not dwell on that experience because it would require much longer.

I want to assure Members that I did as Doug Beattie asked and listened to his and others' contributions. I want to assure everybody that my opposition to this motion is not based on my own very negative experiences of the British Army. Nor is it based on my antipathy to the actions and wars engaged in by the British Army across the globe in recent years.

I will not say, however, that my opposition is not political, because that is not the case. It is very political. It is political in the sense that my opposition to supporting this covenant is based on the protection of right and entitlements and fair access to services for every citizen who lives here in the North.

I, as an MLA, want to represent everyone as best I can and make laws and support legislation that are based on equality. Gerry talked about the issue in relation to victims and survivors. I would certainly not want to agree to anything that would elevate the rights and entitlements of British soldiers over the rights of victims and survivors of the conflict.

On top of that, I would not want to elevate the rights and entitlements of British soldiers over and above doctors and nurses, firemen and firewomen who risked their lives, people with disabilities or long-term illnesses, members of the PSNI, teachers, community and voluntary workers — the list goes on.

My answer to all that is no, and, for that reason, I will be opposing the motion.

Photo of Andy Allen Andy Allen UUP

As I sit here, I vividly recall, at the age of 15 or 16, sitting in a school not far from here, deciding my career prospects and eventually choosing to join the military.

In 2008, I was deployed to Afghanistan with the 1st Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment. As my colleague Doug Beattie pointed out, we do not bring this motion forward to call for individuals to vote to legitimise or endorse any conflict. As individual soldiers, we do not choose where we go in the world.

We go to try to protect those citizens whom we are sent to defend, and we do that as best we can. Unfortunately, quite often, we are put in harm's way. I am evidence of that. In 2008, I was injured in Afghanistan. I recognise that there are many like me who have suffered physical and psychological injuries through service to Queen and country.

The military covenant rightly points out that we as a nation have an obligation to those who serve and have served and their families to ensure that they are not disadvantaged by virtue of their service. I listened with interest to Members opposite say how they could support the two values of the covenant but not the preferential treatment element. I call on them to rethink and ask them to abstain in the vote in acknowledgement that the motion does not, in any way, shape or form, call for preferential treatment. I speak to many veterans and their families on the ground, day and daily, and I am yet to come across any who want preferential treatment. I can sit here and say in testimony that, in no way, shape or form, would I have it that I be put in front of a doctor —

Photo of William Humphrey William Humphrey DUP 1:00, 6 December 2016

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Mr Kelly talked about young men being "sent out", which is an admission that the Government deploy our army, not the military and certainly not the service personnel themselves.

I make this point to the Member. Members across the way talk about people being elevated by the covenant. Those of us in working-class communities have watched former prisoner organisations, including many republican prisoner organisations, receive funding from government. If that is not creating a disjointed and uneven playing field, what is?

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Andy Allen Andy Allen UUP

I thank the Member for his point. I was not conscripted into the army. I went to Afghanistan quite willingly. I chose to go to Afghanistan knowing the potential consequences. I have had individuals approach me and say, "You sit and seek sympathy, but, going there, you knew full well that you could be injured or, worse, not come back". I accept that. I do not dispute that whatsoever. However, it is not unrealistic to expect government to look after us when we are injured, whether physically or psychologically. We should expect our Government to be able to step up.

I acknowledge that the various different service charities that support veterans day and daily, often unseen and unnoticed behind closed doors, do sterling work, but that cannot be the only work that goes on. The covenant reference group would give individuals a platform and an opportunity. I would have no difficulties with Mrs Hale being nominated on to it. Personally, I would much rather see a non-political representative. From the various discussions that I have had with military people on the ground, I know that they would like to see somebody who has no party political affiliation and who would report to the Minister for Communities, for example. I raise that only because of my engagement with the various armed forces' veterans and their families on the ground. That is what they are advising and telling me.

As has been outlined, the Armed Forces covenant reference group sets the priorities for £10 million a year funding. That is funding that will come regardless of whether we have a representative on the covenant reference group. However, if we have a representative on there, that will be a voice for those Northern Ireland veterans and their families. It will ensure that their needs and concerns are being voiced. We heard a comment about Combat Stress and the Somme Nursing Home receiving pivotal and vital funding. However, what we have not heard about is the fact that, owing to donations being scarce, Combat Stress has been forced into a decision to withdraw its welfare support from the front line. It has been revealed that nearly 3,000 individuals who rely on that service will be impacted on. Those are issues that could be raised at the covenant reference group.

I reiterate that this is not about providing preferential treatment. It is not about providing a passport so that somebody can queue-jump or move up the list to get something. I echo that I would not have it that I am put on a list before a doctor, a nurse or any one of our brave emergency services workers, or, for that matter, any other citizen in Northern Ireland, because, as an MLA, I fight day and daily to ensure that all our people are represented.

I believe that it is our duty as MLAs to ensure that we provide for our armed forces community in Northern Ireland as best we can.

Photo of Naomi Long Naomi Long Alliance

I had not intended to speak in the debate but felt that I wanted to in light of some of what I have heard against the motion, particularly from Sinn Féin. I understand the sensitivities that debates on the armed forces can raise in our society, particularly given our history of conflict here, but I think that it is really important that, when we approach this, we do it with maturity and recognise that people are affected by this legislation in Northern Ireland as things stand today. All that the motion calls for is for someone from Northern Ireland to be represented on the group that steers those decisions. That seems to me to be a very rational thing to do.

When we did the review in Westminster into the Armed Forces Covenant and its delivery in Northern Ireland, we found that delivery here was pretty good. Ministers have been quite good at maintaining responsibility over the areas for which they are accountable with regard to the Armed Forces Covenant. However, they do not get to report on the work that they do because, due to our political situation, there is no one to put their report into the annual report, with the result that we have ended up having to rely on individual reports from individual Ministers on what they did to meet the Armed Forces Covenant and the experience of veterans who gave evidence to us.

As regards equality and equal treatment, let us be clear: they are not the same thing. If we want a more equal society, treating everyone the same will not get us there. Those with advantage will continue to be advantaged, and those with disadvantage will continue to be disadvantaged. The only way in which we can bring about a more equal society is with special consideration targeting objective need — not just assessing it but targeting it — looking at what people require in order to give them the opportunity to improve their circumstances.

Photo of Naomi Long Naomi Long Alliance

I am happy to give way to the Member.

Photo of Gerry Kelly Gerry Kelly Sinn Féin

Just to be very clear: at no time have I argued against anything mentioned here, although it is the first time that I have seen £10 million per annum allocated in perpetuity for anything. I am not arguing against what is here. What I am arguing for is that the same treatment be given to other people, particularly those who, in our conflict, have gone through similar experiences to those outlined by Andy Allen and others. I understand absolutely that people have suffered. What I am arguing very clearly is that it cannot be specific to or given to the British armed forces above others. That is what the argument is here. In the second principle, which Andy Allen mentioned a few times, it says that.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Naomi Long Naomi Long Alliance

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would have to say that it does not say that. It says that the disadvantage that people have suffered is to be addressed, not that they are to be advantaged. Special consideration is not advantage: it is to consider the special conditions in which they have lived. I do not have a difficulty with funding going to organisations that have helped, for example, to support ex-prisoners — a very specific group in society — to enable them to get the qualifications and support that they need to re-enter the workplace. That is a very specific group of people who have been given very specific consideration and the support that they require to allow them to live a more equal life and overcome the disadvantage that having been imprisoned would have otherwise been to their ability to have an equal chance in society on their release.

It is good that we should do that if we want to tackle inequality, but we cannot do it for one group and then say that we are not willing to do it when it comes to the armed services. Families are often moved around. They can find it difficult, for example, to establish where they are entitled to apply for housing. It can be difficult for a family in that situation to access the housing waiting list in the same way as other people because of their deployment and history with regard to where they have lived, which is often army accommodation. All those issues are not about putting them to the top of the list but restoring them to the place where they would have been on the list had they not been giving service in the army, which disrupted the situation for them.

It is hugely important that we do this in a sensible way. We in Northern Ireland, in our rather haphazard way, already deliver for the armed services community.

What we do not have is direct input into shaping the policies that drive that process right across the UK. Also, our Ministers do not have the opportunity to feed directly back into the system. From the Westminster report of the review, we know that the then housing Minister was dealing with these issues in a way that was compliant with section 75 and with all Housing Executive regulations to ensure that the armed services were not being disadvantaged. In the same way, Stephen Farry, who was the then Employment and Learning Minister, was offering support to people when they came out of the armed services so that they were able to access training to enable them to reintegrate into normal life. It is important for a society that we do that.

The motion is not about debating the whys and wherefores of the Armed Forces Covenant; it simply asks that Northern Ireland has the opportunity to feed into the process. We are doing these things anyway, but, at the moment, our voice is not heard. I fully support the motion and thank the Members who tabled it.

Photo of Eamonn McCann Eamonn McCann People Before Profit Alliance

Having listened to the various speeches in the debate, I will abstain on the motion. I am not a natural supporter of the British Army. My experience of it, as mentioned by others here, has been entirely negative. What first comes to mind when I hear the British Army mentioned is lying in the gutter of Rossville Street — literally, in the gutter — the street where I was born and brought up, and then crawling away. I was doing a leopard crawl, as they call it, dragging myself by my elbows to get away from the death storm that had erupted in our area on Bloody Sunday. I find it difficult to adopt the benign attitude to the British Army that so many have taken here.

That said, I approved of the demands of the Bloody Sunday campaign, which included the prosecution of those responsible for the massacre in Derry in 1972. This morning, members of the Bloody Sunday families were informed that the results of the PSNI investigation into the killings were handed to the public prosecution service in England this morning, so we will see what comes of that. I have spoken to the PSNI officers involved, and they have interviewed all the shooters who are still alive and whom they could find — the people who pulled the triggers on Bloody Sunday. Regardless of whether they have spoken to more senior people, the fact is that none of the senior people have been interviewed under caution, and none are on the list of people named in this morning's report. If shooters from Bloody Sunday are charged with unlawful killing, punished in a way the courts think appropriate and put behind bars, I will not be out with a placard complaining about it or saying that it is an injustice. However, let me say this: the people who pulled the triggers on Bloody Sunday are, in my opinion, nowhere near as guilty of the killings as the officers who sent them in there, or the senior politicians who organised and approved, two days in advance of Bloody Sunday, an operation in which it was highly foreseeable — it had to be foreseeable because it was foreseen — that innocent people would die.

It is like Kipling said about the army when he referred to the "poor bloody infantry" and:

"Then it's 'Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? ' But it's ' Thin red line of 'eroes' when the drums begin to roll."

That is true of armies all over the world. It is certainly true of the British Army, and it is certainly true of the way in which veterans of British Army actions are treated by their Government and the establishment. Some time ago, there was a piece in the 'Daily Mirror' in which, I think, Mr Beattie was quoted, among others. Philip Wesley, a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, described how, on leaving the army to look after his daughter when they became a one-parent family, his life:

"has been one of food banks, low-paid work, soaring energy bills and expensive housing."

He could not get out of it. That is a typical and common description given by soldiers of the way in which they were treated after being sent out to fight, as they would have understood it, for their country.

The massive injustice done to veterans by those who sent them to do what they did is a far bigger problem and has to be addressed. I am not minimising anything referred to by Mr Beattie, Mr Allen or anybody else. I am not minimising the experiences that they described but talking about the general, overall mistreatment. The fact that soldiers are abandoned when they have done what the state wanted them to do seems to me to be a much more fundamental problem than anything addressed in the motion. For that reason, my comrade Gerry Carroll and I will abstain.

Photo of Linda Dillon Linda Dillon Sinn Féin 1:15, 6 December 2016

I do not intend to speak for very long on the motion. Many of the points that I would have made have already been made. We will oppose the motion because of the equality issue, and that is given all of what has been said by other Members in the Chamber today, as well as what Mr McCann has just said. Whilst I fully accept that there are soldiers who fought in wars that they may or may not have agreed with and that it is Governments and not armies that decide to go to war, I have to say that there are people here in the same situation who have been injured, bereaved or suffered trauma through the Troubles and through nothing to do with the Troubles. I think that everybody should be treated equally and on the same basis.

Mr Allen said that there were organisations there to help people to access benefits, and that is only right. My background is working in a Sinn Féin advice centre, where I helped people to access benefits. I helped everybody. I never asked anybody who came through the door what their background was. I did not ask them if they were in the armed forces or were a soldier, a combatant, an IRA volunteer, the family of a killed IRA volunteer or had no connection to politics or any organisation whatever. I just helped everybody who came in through the door. That is where we need to focus.

Photo of Andy Allen Andy Allen UUP

Will the Member give way?

Photo of Linda Dillon Linda Dillon Sinn Féin

I will give way in a moment.

We need to give help to everybody on the same level. I agree with Naomi Long that equality does not mean giving equal treatment to everybody; I absolutely accept that. We need to look at targeted need, but people who suffer mental ill health suffer it regardless of why. It is regardless of whether it is trauma from something they have seen or something they have done or whether they have had an imbalance from the day they were born. All those people need to be able to access the same help and the same services. They need to be equally accessible to everybody who has the same difficulties. I understand where a number of people in the House are coming from today, but we need to give equal treatment.

Photo of Andy Allen Andy Allen UUP

I thank the Member for giving way; indeed, I understand her comments about working in a constituency office and wanting to help everybody. This is an opportunity for those who serve and have served to be helped — not given preferential treatment but helped — and to allow there to be a voice on the covenant reference group. I will ask this again: will the Members abstain to allow the voice of the Northern Ireland service community to be heard?

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Linda Dillon Linda Dillon Sinn Féin

I will reiterate what Mr Kelly said: it is simply about equality. It is simply about everybody having the same access to services. If we are to take one group over and above another, we have to look at it. I do not pretend to be fully briefed on all the ins and outs of this, but we have to look at it on the basis of equality.

Photo of Jim Allister Jim Allister Traditional Unionist Voice

I commend Mr Beattie for tabling the motion. It is an issue that has long been deserving of attention, because it is a scandal that this part of the United Kingdom is the only area that does not have representation in respect of those who have served in the armed forces. Of course, there is a very clear reason for that, which is that Sinn Féin has exercised a veto on Northern Ireland having such representation; indeed, by the looks of it, Sinn Féin has also exercised a veto on there even being a Minister from the First Minister's office here today to deal with the issue, such is its antipathy on the matter. We know for a certainty that it is the exercise of the Sinn Féin veto that has denied representation because of evidence given to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on 24 April 2013, referred to by Mrs Long, when the issue of why the Executive had not even responded to an invitation to send representation was raised. That was dealt with by two Ministers — Mr Poots and Mr McCausland — and both had to acknowledge that it had never been brought to the Executive table because Sinn Féin had blocked it.

Let us be under no illusion: the reason there is no representation for veterans in Northern Ireland at the centre of this matter is that bigoted, belligerent Sinn Féin veto, some evidence of which we have seen in today's debate. From Mr Kelly's lips came forth the real reason his party is not prepared to show due deference to military veterans: the pernicious equivalence that he and his party seek to establish between those who served the forces of law and order and those who served the forces of terrorism. He made it abundantly clear that, so long as others stand in the way of, for example, a pension for terrorists, Sinn Féin will belligerently block matters as just as this. It is that pernicious equivalence that Sinn Féin seeks to obtain between the soldier who served his country and the terrorist who shot civilians and soldiers — anyone they could find — in the back. The attempt to establish that equivalence lies at the heart of Sinn Féin belligerence and bigotry on the matter. That is the truth of it. It is, in fact, a badge of the failure of the system of government here that our veterans have been so badly let down. They have no representation because, under the system, a veto has been gifted to those who are on the side of the terrorists rather than on the side of the forces of law and order.

Let us be very plain: this is not about validating army actions internationally, nationally or any other way. It was not the ordinary soldier who decided that the United Kingdom armed forces should intervene in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else; it was government and Parliament and politicians. Why are we penalising the ordinary soldiers who did the only thing they could do, which was to fulfil their duties in their day job? Why are we penalising them, when they suffer as they have suffered? The only answer is that we are penalising them because of the bigotry and belligerence of Sinn Féin, which wants to equate those gallant men and women with the terrorists who are closest to its heart and who set themselves up to do down the forces of law and order. Therein lies the scandal at the heart of this thing. It is the elevation of Sinn Féin's undying commitment to the terrorist cause that causes it to block doing the decent thing for the decent men and women who served in our armed forces.

Photo of Mike Nesbitt Mike Nesbitt UUP

Deputy Speaker, it was not my intention to speak. I apologise to the House for arriving late; I was travelling home from elsewhere on Committee business.

I would like to make some remarks in response to what Sinn Féin has said. Linda Dillon talked about mental health. She will know that I have campaigned passionately on the subject for a number of years; in fact, if she checks a speech that I made to the Ulster Unionist Party conference a couple of years ago, she will find that I made a clear reference to the fact that I wanted us to help everybody with poor mental health or well-being, no matter how they came by it. Not one of the 400 delegates in the room that day raised any objection to helping everybody, no matter how they came by poor mental health.

We all recognise equality, but, sometimes, there are groups that need bespoke measures. Sinn Féin accepts that; there is reference in section A of the Fresh Start Agreement to the reintegration of people who were involved in the Troubles and the issues they have with employability. As leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, I have met a group administered and set up by the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister — now the Executive Office — with representatives of paramilitary organisations. I have sat in a meeting room upstairs looking from left to right at representatives of the Official IRA, the UDA, the UVF, the Provisional IRA and the Red Hand Commando. They were all singing off the same hymn sheet; they all had the same agenda. They said, "We have issues with car insurance and home insurance. We have issues with our inability to obtain a visa to travel to the United States". They had a shopping list of issues that they were looking for cross-community and cross-party help with. That is fair enough. I say to Sinn Féin and to anybody else who is going to vote today that the Ulster Unionist Party has not stood in the way of that group seeking measures to address the obstacles in their lives. We understand that they are there and that they are intergenerational. When combatants — if that is the phraseology that Sinn Féin wants to use — pass away, the issues remain alive because they travel intergenerationally. We have not stood in the way, so I ask Sinn Féin to reflect on whether it will stand in the way today.

Photo of Steve Aiken Steve Aiken UUP

Obviously, I support this important motion. Before I add my commentary on the valued contributions made by all Members to the discussion today, I wilI, as a veteran of far too many conflicts with many years of service to my country, add my comments on the need for us to nominate a Northern Ireland representative to the UK-wide Armed Forces Covenant reference group, along with representatives from other regional and national government for that vital role.

The Armed Forces Covenant is a promise from the nation that those who serve or have served in the armed forces and their families will be treated fairly. From those words, we may assume that our armed forces veterans and those who serve along with their families are treated with extra care and attention above that of the ordinary citizen; indeed, if we lived in any other country, that may be the case. US veterans have the benefit of the GI Bill for higher and further education, free healthcare through the veterans' administration, preferential employment opportunities through the civil service and a well-supported route to employment through many private companies. Many of us have witnessed the support given to US servicemen and servicewomen at airports, in shops and across the States. Veterans are valued citizens and employees who contribute greatly to civil society; indeed, they are the bedrock of many American communities.

That approach to the serviceman or servicewoman and, when they retire, support to their next of kin is replicated in France, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands and even the Republic of Ireland. The story in the United Kingdom, until recently, was very different. The tradition of two world wars, Korea, the conflict here in Northern Ireland, the Falklands War and the seemingly never-ending Cold War skirmishes that few have heard about even to this day have resulted in a series of casualties, deaths and disrupted lives that have largely been left to the dedicated charity support of organisations like the excellent Royal British Legion, whose exemplary work to this day is so crucial to the well-being of so many, the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association (SSAFA), the Royal Naval Association, the Royal Air Forces Association and the many regimental charities and support groups. There is little support from government, especially — speaking from personal experience — from the Ministry of Defence.

Indeed, the Ministry of Defence support for serving personnel was especially inadequate, from substandard accommodation, poor resettlement training, limited educational opportunities for service children and a parsimonious attitude to everything from allowances to travel to, even on occasion, the provision of food. For those who were not directly in the front line or on operations, in many cases, it was not short of beggarly. Yet, those of us who served did it gladly, for the sense of doing something for the higher good and for the comradely attitude that service life built for us. All we ask for is equality with our fellow citizens.

Rather than fighting wars in the 21st century, our servicemen and women, of whom many thousands have come from and live in Northern Ireland or the Republic and continue to call them home — for long periods many more Irish citizens served proudly and loyally in the British armed services than ever served in the Irish defence forces — have become increasingly involved with conflicts of so-called choice.

Failures in foreign policy have resulted in our sailors, soldiers and airmen making up for our politicians' failure to effectively manage challenges to the international system. Rather than using the military as the last line of defence, it has, seemingly, been used as the first tool of power, often for highly disputed outcomes that, we must add, are not the result of the actions of those brave and committed members of our armed forces. They have had to bear the brunt of the conflict, with them and their families having to deal with the physical and mental aftermath and with a civilian society that, in many cases, treated them as an afterthought. It was in that spirit, and with a greater understanding of the sacrifice in the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, that there was a realisation that that was not a case of benign neglect or unconscious discrimination, but, rather, that our nation should at least promote equality for our forces and their families — equality in healthcare, housing, education and opportunity. That is why the Armed Forces Covenant is so important.

You have heard that up to 93% of the covenant is being delivered in Northern Ireland and that, because of special circumstances, full recognition cannot be delivered. I, my party colleagues and thousands of serving personnel, veterans and our wider Northern Ireland armed forces family community dispute that. Indeed, a simple recognition by having the Executive appoint a representative to the Armed Forces covenant reference group is a first step in taking a well-reasoned and mature approach to recognising that equality for our armed forces family — not special cases or special pleading but a recognition of objective need — is a laudable goal and one that I hope all Members can support.

I was going to sum up the excellent statements that we heard throughout the debate, and they have been excellent. However, I would like to put some particular points to Sinn Féin. I would like the Sinn Féin representatives to abstain rather than oppose the motion and show clearly that they understand that we are moving into a new era. By recognising equality for the 250,000-odd members of the Northern Ireland armed forces family by not opposing the appointment of a representative to the covenant reference group, they will send a clear message of reconciliation. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put. The Assembly divided:

<SPAN STYLE="font-style:italic;"> Ayes 58; Noes 20

AYES

Mr Agnew, Mr Aiken, Mr Allen, Mr Allister, Mr Anderson, Ms Armstrong, Ms Bailey, Mrs Barton, Mr Beattie, Mr Beggs, Mr Bell, Mr M Bradley, Ms P Bradley, Ms Bradshaw, Mr K Buchanan, Mr T Buchanan, Ms Bunting, Mr Butler, Mrs Cameron, Mr Chambers, Mr Clarke, Mr Dickson, Mrs Dobson, Mr Douglas, Mr Dunne, Mr Easton, Dr Farry, Mr Ford, Mr Frew, Mr Girvan, Mrs Hale, Mr Hamilton, Mr Humphrey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kennedy, Mrs Little Pengelly, Ms Lockhart, Mr Logan, Mrs Long, Mr Lunn, Mr Lyons, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCausland, Miss McIlveen, Mr McKee, Mr McQuillan, Mr Middleton, Lord Morrow, Mr Nesbitt, Mrs Overend, Mrs Palmer, Mr Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr Smith, Mr Stalford, Mr Storey, Mr Swann, Mr Wells

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Aiken, Mr Beattie

NOES

Ms Archibald, Mr Boylan, Ms Boyle, Ms Dillon, Ms Gildernew, Mr Kearney, Mr Kelly, Mr Lynch, Mr McAleer, Mr F McCann, Ms J McCann, Mr McElduff, Mr McGuigan, Mr McMullan, Mr Maskey, Mr Milne, Mr Murphy, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr Sheehan

Tellers for the Noes: Ms Archibald, Ms Dillon

Question accordingly agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly recognises the need to deliver for the veterans’ community in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Executive to nominate a Northern Ireland representative to the UK-wide Armed Forces covenant reference group, which will be responsible for ensuring that the Executive are kept updated of issues relating to the veterans’ community in Northern Ireland.

Photo of Brenda Hale Brenda Hale DUP 1:45, 6 December 2016

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I ask that the Speaker's Office review Mr McCann's contribution for relevance to the motion. I am disappointed that he was not guided by the motion, and we heard more about his opinion of the army's role in Londonderry. I ask that the matter be referred to the Speaker.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

I am not sure whether that is a point of order, but, nonetheless, we will ask the Speaker to have a look at it.

Members, the next item of business in the Order Paper is Question Time. I therefore propose, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm.

The sitting was suspended at 1.48 pm and resumed at 2.00 pm.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)