BBC Royal Charter and Framework Agreement

Executive Committee Business – in the Northern Ireland Assembly at 3:45 pm on 27 September 2016.

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Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker 3:45, 27 September 2016

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The Minister will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other speakers will have five minutes.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

I beg to move

That this Assembly takes note of the content of the draft BBC Royal Charter and Framework Agreement.

As Minister with responsibility for broadcasting matters in Northern Ireland, I am pleased to be here today to debate the draft BBC Royal Charter and Framework Agreement. BBC charter renewal is a very important issue for the broadcasting sector in Northern Ireland. People here attach a great value to having a comprehensive public service broadcasting service that reflects all aspects of our social, cultural and political life.

The Royal Charter is the constitutional basis for the BBC. It sets out its public purposes, guarantees its independence and outlines the various duties placed upon it. The current charter outlines the duties of the BBC Trust and the executive board. The proposed new charter will come into effect on 1 January 2017. The BBC’s Framework Agreement is an agreement between the UK Government and the BBC, and it sits alongside the charter. It provides detail on many of the issues outlined in the charter and also covers the BBC's funding and regulatory duties. The BBC charter renewal is a very important issue for our broadcasting sector, and it is essential that the needs of Northern Ireland are catered for in the new charter and Framework Agreement.

I want to see opportunities in the TV and film industry being maximised for local workers and companies, and it is essential that we receive fair treatment in regard to public service broadcasting spend on commissioning, particularly in relation to spending on Irish language and Ulster-Scots broadcasting. The BBC should meet its obligations within the charter to provide services for all its communities, including indigenous language broadcasting. It is also important that the portrayal of Northern Ireland on the networks shows a fuller picture of us as a modern society. It is essential, and increasingly so, that the role that diverse groups play within our society is reflected and that people are not portrayed by a single aspect of their identity, such as ethnicity or disability. The creative industries are important to our economy, and the BBC is a major player in the creative industries ecosystem. As a result, it is essential that we have strengthened links and meaningful collaboration between the BBC and the wider creative industries.

Essential changes, some of which I touched on earlier, include that there needs to be a full, authentic, accurate and more up-to-date portrayal of Northern Ireland on the networks that shows a fuller picture of our society. We have been underserved by public service broadcasting spend up to now, and we therefore need to see an increase and improvement in the commissioning of original programming that showcases our local communities. There also needs to be more local cultural TV and radio coverage, and opportunities for local workers and companies must be maximised, with greater emphasis placed on home-grown productions and the harnessing of local talent. There must be increased commissioning of original programming that showcases our local communities and what they have to offer.

It is crucial that the BBC has governance, management and funding structures that reflect the needs of each devolved Administration and region and better support the development, production and delivery of content from us — content that is available not just to our own audiences but to wider audiences within the United Kingdom and internationally. There should be a simple and transparent BBC strategy for Northern Ireland that is not only available for scrutiny by those responsible for governance but available as a road map and an empowering authority for the executives in the BBC and BBC NI.

It is also essential that the Assembly has some means of holding the UK Government and the BBC to account to ensure that they provide for a truly representative service that is fit for purpose in the 21st century. Our memorandum of understanding gives the Assembly a formal scrutiny role in regard to the BBC. It also provides for BBC officials appearing before Northern Ireland Assembly Committees on matters relating to Northern Ireland on the same basis as it does in Westminster. Those arrangements will be enshrined in the new charter and should provide a mechanism that makes the public service broadcaster accountable and answerable to the Assembly. Accountability should help to ensure that we receive the economic and cultural value that we deserve and warrant from the BBC. In the past, there was a failure to ensure that Northern Ireland received the cultural and economic value from BBC network production that our population and devolved status demands. We need to be certain that that will not happen again, and the proposals set out in the draft charter will go a long way towards ensuring that it will not.

Provisions of particular interest to Northern Ireland include that specific provision is made for the nations in the new licensing regime. In addition, the new charter commits the BBC to continued support for the minority languages of the United Kingdom. In respect of accountability and governance, the BBC must reflect the constitutional arrangements within the United Kingdom. All the devolved Administrations will be able to agree to the appointment of their respective member to the new BBC board before they are appointed. The BBC has committed to improving representation and portrayal of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom through its services.

The nations and regions public purpose will emphasise the need for the BBC to support the creative economy of each nation of the United Kingdom through the delivery of its mission and public purposes. The BBC must now report against the creative remits set out in the annual plan on a nation-by-nation basis. The UK Government have recognised that the BBC's impact on and contribution to the creative economy, particularly in the nations, is an important one, and I welcome that recognition.

In conclusion, at this stage, the BBC charter review has given us in Northern Ireland a formal role in contributing fully to the review process. The current drafts mirror many of the demands of the devolved Administrations, and my officials and I will continue to engage with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) over the next number of weeks as we seek to ensure that our interests are clearly reflected in the final documents.

Photo of Michelle Gildernew Michelle Gildernew Sinn Féin

The Committee received and noted copies of the draft charter and the draft agreement that the House is being asked to take note of today. The Committee has been offered a briefing by the current BBC Trust member and will decide at its meeting on Thursday whether that is required on foot of today’s debate.

The future of the BBC has been much debated by the media over recent months, but I suspect that much of the detail of the debate has been of real concern only to those in the media. There seemed to be a question at certain points in the charter discussions whether the BBC would survive at all as a public broadcaster, given what appeared to be ideological opposition to public-sector broadcasting from the two previous Conservative Culture Secretaries, Sajid Javid and John Whittingdale. That argument has been settled, at least for the next 11 years, given that the charter lasts until 2027.

I respectfully suggest that the details of the charter and draft agreement are of little relevance or interest to the ordinary person in the street. Of course, there are issues that do generate interest, such as the requirement to name people in the organisation who earn over £150,000, including the people who think of themselves as big stars. In the overall scheme of things, however, that is not important. What is, or should be, important to us all is that we have the confidence that the BBC here is well governed and managed; that the licence fee is value for money; and that the BBC maintains its independence from Government. I think that it is broadly accepted that the new arrangements go some way to embedding processes within the structures of the BBC that seek to achieve those objectives.

As mentioned, a key issue for the BBC throughout the charter discussions was certainty about funding. The renewal of the charter is for a further 11 years and should provide stable funding for the organisation. Arguments over the continuation of the licence fee have been put to bed, and the BBC should be able to get on with its mandate of providing broadcasting to the public that will educate, inform and entertain.

It is also important to note the change in governance arrangements, with the establishment of a new board rather than the current system of trustees. The role of the board will be extensive, but it is important to highlight the requirement for transparency in the workings of the board and the independence from Government of each member. It is to be noted that the Government will directly appoint five of the 14-strong board, including a new chair and the four national directors for the North of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. That leaves the BBC able to appoint four executive members of the board alongside another five independent members. This should provide some assurance that the board is independent.

The change to the regulation of the BBC is a fundamental one. Currently, the BBC is self-regulating, but from next year Ofcom will take on the responsibility, and it will have extensive powers. Of particular interest are the powers of Ofcom to determine whether the BBC’s commercial activities, because of their link to public services, give it an unfair competitive advantage. An operating framework will be produced in which Ofcom will set requirements that define what the relationship between the BBC and its commercial activities should be. This will be crucial, given that Ofcom's powers in relation to the BBC are extensive. They include the power to order the BBC to cease activity that Ofcom judges to be anti-competitive.

In principle, most of us support the idea of external, independent regulation, but it will be important to see to what extent the new arrangements restrict the BBC’s commercial activity. That will be important in the context of section 13 of the charter, which seeks to promote and establish creative partnerships with other organisations where they would be in the public interest. We have seen the growth of the creative industries here over a number of years. According to the Department, 36,000 people — 4·6% of the workforce — are employed in the creative industries or creative occupations. We do not want to see the potential of the BBC to assist with that burgeoning industry curtailed by regulation.

In addition, the National Audit Office will report on the group accounts. The Secretary of State must then lay the group accounts and the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General before Parliament, and these must be subsequently published by the BBC. Similarly, they have to be laid before our Assembly on the same day as, or as soon as possible after, they have been laid before Parliament in Westminster. This should afford transparency on the organisation's expenditure activities.

Turning to the local, as well as to the "big ticket" programmes that have proved popular —

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker 4:00, 27 September 2016

Will the Member draw her remarks to a close, please?

Photo of Michelle Gildernew Michelle Gildernew Sinn Féin

OK. Local programming is also important to people, whether that be stories about our communities, local sports programming or a locally produced series with wider appeal, such as 'The Fall'. The Committee has received an offer —

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member's time is up.

Photo of Michelle Gildernew Michelle Gildernew Sinn Féin

OK. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Photo of Jonathan Bell Jonathan Bell DUP

It is an important debate. As I understand it, while it is down as a take-note debate, the UK Government will look at what comes from the Northern Ireland Assembly and from Scotland and Wales. That will then be factored into the report that the UK Government will present on the charter and the agreement to the Privy Council in time for it to come into force on 1 January 2017. The points that we can make today, albeit within five minutes, should be those that we want carried through.

Indeed, the BBC has come a long way from the British Broadcasting Company, as it was in 1922. Then, I think that it was — I will probably not get the pronunciation correct — the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres who chaired the committee that, in 1926, looked at the United States and said, "We do not want to see unregulated broadcasting", and produced a report, which was accepted. I think that that has been a very good thing. The BBC became the British Broadcasting Corporation, deriving its authority from a Royal Charter.

We now have an opportunity to present the points that Northern Ireland wants to see within the report. I note with a lot of alarm that the BBC has developed production centres in England, Glasgow and Cardiff, but none in Northern Ireland. I congratulate the former Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure for the work that it did in its legacy report on this, because it is not acceptable to have production centres in England, Cardiff and Glasgow, but not in Northern Ireland. If we had a BBC production centre in Northern Ireland, it would give our licence fee payers a proper return for the investment that they have put into the BBC.

There is a lot that we want to see. We want to see independence and transparency. I know that Gregory Campbell MP, formerly of this parish, will be delighted if journalists — particularly one, I suspect — have to declare anything over £150,000 in earnings. It is really important for Northern Ireland that we take a strategic approach to supporting the creative industries here. Over the years we have seen so much, not just by the BBC but others, from 'Line of Duty' right through to other productions outside the BBC, such as 'Game of Thrones', where you have had some excellent productions and millions of pounds brought into the economy as a result of the creative industries. The demand that we should place here, through to the UK Government, is that we want a production centre in Northern Ireland to allow us to take a strategic approach and, as I say, give the licence fee payers some sort of return for their money.

I like the fact that the BBC will be put on a proper financial footing that should enable it to plan properly for the future. I also like the changes that will take it outside political cycles because I believe that there is a role for the BBC to be independent into the future.

Can I say one particular thing? I do not know whether I am having a midlife crisis or it is just whatever age I am getting to, but I am listening more to radio and podcasts than I am watching television. I understand that Northern Ireland's listenership to BBC radio is much higher than it is in any other part of the UK, so there is a strong argument for radio services to be more appreciated by the BBC. There is some excellent radio — from BBC4 podcasts that I enjoy to conspiracy thrillers from Matthew Broughton down. Wonderful creative radio and news. We should recognise, particularly in Northern Ireland, where we have an ageing demographic, that many older people look to their radios as a form of company; it is their choice of what to listen to in the media. Given a higher radio listenership in Northern Ireland, we should have an increased investment in radio.

For me, critically, we need a proper BBC production centre in Northern Ireland, as we have already shown that we can outperform in the creative industries. Such a centre would be an asset for the BBC, an asset for us, and an asset for the licence payer.

Photo of Andy Allen Andy Allen UUP

In opening on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, I will, if I may, pay our condolences to the renowned BBC NI broadcaster and journalist Paddy O'Flaherty. Our sympathies are with his family at this time.

The BBC charter review is timely and necessary. The BBC is a national institution that contributes greatly to the cultural life of the United Kingdom and, on the whole, enjoys a great deal of public support. In return for the licence fee, the audience, rightly, expects the BBC to continue to produce high-quality, creative and innovative content.

In my party's response to the BBC charter review, we recognised that this was a time of change for the UK, not least in how devolution is impacting on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The BBC needs to adapt to these changes and ensure at the same time that the interests of the nations and regions are given a voice. One of the most important changes that the news and current affairs departments in BBC Northern Ireland have to adapt to is to recognise the existence of an official Opposition at Stormont and to balance its reporting accordingly.

In fairness, the BBC does not have an easy job, given that it has to cater for an extremely wide range of age groups, ethnicities and communities, including, of course, those in the devolved nations and UK regions, where audiences' needs and expectations can, and often do, vary widely. Quite correctly, all feel that they have a stake in the BBC and that they all should be reflected in what the BBC does.

We are well aware of the debate about how well the BBC services licence payers in the devolved regions. Regional opt-outs ensure that local news and programming fit within the BBC nationally. It is extremely important that the people of Northern Ireland have access to a respected national broadcaster.

We note in schedule 2, paragraph 6 of the draft agreement, that Ofcom has a great deal of discretion. It states:

"Ofcom must impose on the BBC the requirements they consider appropriate, having regard to the needs of the nations and regions".

Many of the following clauses begin with "what appears to Ofcom" or "such provision as Ofcom consider appropriate". That theme is continued in schedule 2, paragraph 7, "Programme making in the nations and regions", which states:

"Ofcom must impose on the BBC the requirements they consider appropriate for securing ... what appears to Ofcom to be a suitable proportion of all the network programmes made in the United Kingdom are programmes made in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland;"

Again, the phrase "what appears to Ofcom" keeps cropping up, and the role of Ofcom is obviously key in ensuring that the nations and regions receive fair and equitable treatment. The Ulster Unionist Party greatly values the importance of locally produced and commissioned programming. However, it must be of high quality. There is no doubt that the creative industries have been a real Northern Ireland success story in recent times. The BBC has a major role to play in commissioning programmes and working with external producers in making programmes. This is an area where the BBC can make a real, positive impact on Northern Ireland plc and help the local economy in the process.

I will return to the issue of BBC funding. The BBC faces challenges that were unforeseen even 20 years ago. The success and popularity of Sky TV and the growth of digital media platforms provide a very different operating environment from the days when the only competition came from ITV and independent radio. It is crucial that the BBC has a stable funding framework in order to enable forward planning. The 2006 charter will extend for a further 10 years until the end of 2027, and the 2006 agreement will be revoked and replaced by a new framework agreement.

That is a time frame that should provide sufficient security and stability for the BBC going forward.

The Ulster Unionist Party recognises the key role that the BBC plays, both UK-wide and at local level. We want to see a BBC that is fit for purpose and meets the needs of the people of Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom as we progress into the 21st century.

Photo of Nichola Mallon Nichola Mallon Social Democratic and Labour Party

I fervently believe in the importance of having a reliable public broadcaster that acts in the public interest, serving all audiences through the provision of impartial, high-quality and distinctive output and services that inform, educate and entertain. You will find no disagreement here on this objective of the BBC's mission in its Royal Charter, but the real test is in how those objectives are put into practice. I do not intend to go through the charter comprehensively — I know that other Members will point out issues of importance to them — but there are just a few things I would like to touch on. The SDLP welcomes the out-of-London quotas, but that must extend beyond the outer suburbs of London. It must reflect the cultural and social —

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

Sorry. I am picking up a number of conversations. Perhaps Members would, if they wish to conduct conversations, conduct them elsewhere or less audibly at least.

Photo of Nichola Mallon Nichola Mallon Social Democratic and Labour Party

We are very clear that the out-of-London quotas must extend beyond the Outer Hebrides and include the social and cultural distinctiveness of Northern Ireland. In the North, for example, Derry and Belfast have clear cultural and social distinctions that must be protected and reflected through local services like Radio Foyle. The SDLP also welcomes the extension to the Assembly of parity with Scotland and Wales in relation to the appointments of nation members to the new unitary board. That is an accountability step that is long overdue. Members also touched on the issue of salaries.

Photo of Christopher Stalford Christopher Stalford DUP

I thank the Member for giving way. The Member will be aware that I raised the issue of public appointments in the Committee for Communities. I suspect that there is a coterie of about 100 people in Northern Ireland who absolutely dominate all public appointments. Does she agree that, if the BBC is to be a truly national broadcaster, it is essential that it is reflective of the public? That includes not just the usual definitions but things like social class.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Nichola Mallon Nichola Mallon Social Democratic and Labour Party

I thank the Member for his intervention. I firmly believe that all appointments should be done in an open and transparent manner, whether for a spin doctor or for appointments to the new unitary board.

Members passed comment on salaries, which is only right. We welcome the move to greater openness and transparency regarding the salaries of the BBC's highest earners. The public have a right to know how public money is spent, and it is as simple as that.

Just to air a note of caution, the SDLP would be strongly against any suggestion of a move to introduce subscription charges for the BBC. We do not want to see a first-class and second-class system in which people can access their public service broadcaster only on the basis of their ability to pay. However, we welcome the move to open up the tendering process and think it will be a positive move if approached correctly. It improves the opportunities for us in Northern Ireland to build on our success in producing world-class TV productions, not least 'Game of Thrones'.

Finally, my party colleague in Westminster, Margaret Ritchie MP, has already sought assurances from the Secretary of State that the collaboration between the BBC and RTE, which is much valued, will not be undermined. It is important that I take the opportunity to reiterate that point.

Photo of Naomi Long Naomi Long Alliance

I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of Alliance about the BBC Royal Charter and Framework Agreement announced in Parliament on 16 September. The charter is an essential instrument for an organisation that has become a cornerstone of broadcasting in the UK and throughout the world. It is uniquely well respected as an institution, and, whilst it is not without flaws, it has an important role to fulfill as a public broadcaster.

I want to focus my comments on three aspects of the draft charter and the particular opportunities and challenges they present to the BBC and Northern Ireland. First, I am concerned, unlike some others, that with this charter review we are witnessing the further erosion of the BBC but by means of stealth. The current Government appear to want the BBC to be both a public service broadcaster and a commercially competitive organisation and place challenges in its way on both fronts.

As has been well documented in the media, the charter will lead to the publication of the salaries of presenters and talent on the BBC. There is a strong argument that that accounts for public money being expended, but it could lead to the release of information that would be considered commercially sensitive by its competitors and could make the poaching of household names from the BBC by other channels much simpler. Whilst that may not seem much of an issue, it disregards the BBC's investment in talent and development and the negative impact that it could have on viewing figures and the popularity of its shows, for which the same people will no doubt also judge its performance very harshly. It seems that the Government live up to the adage of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

The same pattern of commercialisation has led to the outsourcing of much BBC programming to independent production companies. That in itself is not a bad thing, and it results in programmes that only a public service broadcaster could afford to risk making. Once those programmes gain popular appeal, they are sold off to the highest bidder, again diminishing the BBC's schedule, despite its investment in developing those programmes. A recent example of that is 'The Great British Bake Off'. Who would have thought that a show about competitive baking would grip the nation? It has, but it took a public service broadcaster to broadcast it on BBC 2 before it was able to be mainstreamed onto prime-time television on BBC 1. The BBC has now lost out to a commercial operator. While some argue that that will allow new talent and opportunities to break through, it hits BBC viewing figures, against which its performance is judged.

It has also been announced that the BBC will fund free television licences for the over-75s in the charter. I welcome that move and, indeed, believe that it could go much further. However, it will come at the expense of the BBC's running costs, its staff and programme content rather than through additional funding, which further undermines its competitiveness. For both those reasons, I fear that the intentions of the current Government are perhaps not as honourable as they claim.

My second concern is the independence of the BBC, with the inclusion of political appointees on the board. As a public service broadcaster, it must be seen to be independent, and it is hugely important that that is maintained. Political appointments have the potential to diminish that significantly, and, given the questions raised about public appointments in Northern Ireland, I am grateful that there will be a degree of transparency and openness. It should not be politicised.

The appointment of someone from Northern Ireland to the board represents opportunities to increase Northern Irish-created content. Content made in Northern Ireland for Northern Ireland is hugely important, but, if we are to develop our creative industries, it is also important that the BBC commits to making national content in each constituent country. Through television shows such as 'The Fall', 'Game of Thrones' and 'Lily's Driftwood Bay', we have demonstrated that Northern Ireland can create and produce world-class television. I want to see that built on through the BBC's local content commitment.

Finally, an opportunity has been lost to decriminalise the non-payment of a TV licence. My party leader, David Ford, raised the issue with the Home Office during his time as Justice Minister, and it could have been addressed in the charter. Last year, a quarter of criminal prosecutions in Northern Ireland were for failure to pay a TV licence, and fewer than half were found guilty. That puts significant pressure on the legal system. Decriminalisation would allow cost savings, and non-payment could be pursued through non-criminal means.

I note the BBC charter review and hope that the opportunities for improvement in the charter will be fully realised while the risks to an excellent public service broadcaster and its independence are minimised.

Photo of Christopher Stalford Christopher Stalford DUP 4:15, 27 September 2016

The BBC is one of the great national institutions. It is extremely powerful. I would suggest that, certainly in Northern Ireland and potentially in the United Kingdom as a whole, it is much more powerful than any political party. With such power comes a responsibility for regulation, so I welcome the fact that Ofcom is to assume regulatory powers with regard to the BBC. It is right that an organisation that millions of people are taxed to pay for should be regulated in that way and scrutinised for the way in which it is run.

I welcome that, as Naomi Long, a Member for East Belfast, said, there will be a Northern Ireland representative appointed to make our voice heard. Given the comments from the former special adviser turned Assembly Member for North Belfast, I am sure she will be able to advise of the public appointment procedures she went through.

I am delighted that progress has been made —

A Member:

By royal appointment.

Photo of Christopher Stalford Christopher Stalford DUP

By royal appointment.

Progress has been made with openness and transparency. The headlines have obviously been grabbed by the issue of talent pay. I think a more important issue is that the coverage produced for Northern Ireland should reflect Northern Ireland. The BBC recognises that and that it has an obligation to minority languages and cultural expression. One of the areas where I believe there has been a falling away is the representation of the entire Ulster-Scots tradition. I am not an Ulster Scot in the sense of family background, but it is something that interests me and that I have taken an interest in because of the shared heritage and tradition that there is. Northern Ireland and Scotland are divided by about eight miles of water at some points and precious little else. It is part of who we are; it is part of our tradition and our identity. I would like to see more of a reflection of that being produced by the BBC.

I am absolutely not saying that the growth of one should be at the expense of another, such as the Irish language. I recognise that that is important to people as well. I think we should have greater parity between those two traditions and how they are reflected. Some of the programmes produced have been really good. I think particularly of the series that was produced about the Ulster-Scots contribution in Canada. I would like to see more high-quality programming like that being produced as part of the obligations the BBC has in that regard.

The BBC likes to talk about the unique way in which it is funded. That is code for the TV tax we all pay. I agree with the point made, again by the Member for East Belfast, about the need to decriminalise the non-payment of a licence fee. It cannot be right that so much time, effort and resource are spent pursuing people, with criminal charges being brought against them, for the non-payment of a TV licence.

Moving forward, more openness and transparency are needed about how money is spent, and there needs to be a greater preparedness to reflect the society it serves. There also needs to be a genuine commitment to independence and neutrality. The BBC is, as I said, a great national institution. It covers big national events like the Queen's jubilee and the state opening of Parliament. Even its general election coverage is better than that offered by anyone else. It is in all our interests for it to continue to be a success, but it is also in our interests for it to be held accountable for the way in which taxpayer money —

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close, please.

Photo of Carál Ní Chuilín Carál Ní Chuilín Sinn Féin

I declare an interest at the start: I was one of the Ministers — the other one is over there — who probably started the process of the review of the BBC charter and funding agreement. I am delighted to see that some of the suggestions that were brought forward have been taken on board, but I still think that, notwithstanding that our Committee will meet on Thursday, there are some concerns about some of the issues. The whole issue about the independence of the BBC is, I think, just a given. However, as a result of the Silk and Smith commissions, the funding arrangements, particularly for Scotland, and the memorandum of understanding that was brought forward then, we here and Wales felt there was an inequality. So that seems to have changed. I had a concern about any body regulating itself, so Ofcom has now become the regulating body, and even the concerns about the arrangements around the advisory committee have been listened to as well. In one year, the BBC had accrued around £4 billion. A lot of us would like to know how that money was spent.

I listened to Jonathan Bell talk about the BBC needing to have a production house here. I tend to disagree with him. I think that one of the successful arguments that we have made is that we have excellent producers and commissioners and the ability to commission programmes here, and, in order for our independent creative industries to thrive, we need to try to support that. The BBC has not exploited the skills and expertise that we have here as much as it should have, in my opinion.

I also believe that, without the broadcasting funds, the BBC has not contributed enough to Ulster Scots and the Irish language. While the broadcast funds are administered through the BBC and even through the work of NI Screen, it still, for me, raises concerns. I am not convinced that the argument around parity of those broadcast funds stands up, to be frank.

I have shared some of the concerns, and that will be reflected somewhat in the charter, about making sure that we are represented in a way that is true, reflective and faithful to the people here, and the Minister touched on that in his opening remarks. That is really important, and I believe that the BBC has lacked in that in the past. One of the best ways that we can change that is to spend more money here commissioning programmes. We have made excellent programmes that can be shown anywhere. I believe that it is a two-way process, and not enough has been done, despite the fact that the creative industries sector here, NI Screen and the BBC here have lobbied and argued for that.

The context for all that argument was particularly around the charter renewal and the funding agreement. I do not think that it is challenging the independence of the BBC to ask where the money is being spent and, more importantly, how it is being spent. I would definitely like to see more of a breakdown of local commissioning here and, particularly, more commissioning in addition to the broadcast funds around the Irish language and Ulster Scots. I shared some concerns around the outworkings of some of those programmes, particularly in relation to Ulster Scots, but that is by the by. That is something that we need to look at.

It is really important that we look at governance and lessons learned from the failure around some of the governance issues with the BBC in the past. One of the biggest issues is the governance around some of the historical sexual abuse allegations. I think that the BBC was quite disgraceful in the way that it governed. It looked after the celebrity rather than the victims. If anything, this presents us with an opportunity to ensure that that never happens again. I am quite looking forward to hearing what some of the big presenters earn. I think that we could take a guess on that.

This is a take-note debate —

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

Will the Member draw her remarks to a close, please?

Photo of Carál Ní Chuilín Carál Ní Chuilín Sinn Féin

Yes. Beidh mé ag críochnú anois. I am delighted to take part in this and delighted that we have got it this far, but there is still much more work that we need to do.

Photo of Nelson McCausland Nelson McCausland DUP

The BBC, as the principal public service broadcaster for the United Kingdom, has a special place in the life of the nation. It has a role in representing Northern Ireland to the wider United Kingdom audience through its programming and, in the other direction, in representing the diversity and unity of the United Kingdom to Northern Ireland viewers. It is, of course, the British Broadcasting Corporation. It is important also that it has a role as regards preventing the marginalisation of Northern Ireland and, indeed, the other nations and regions and avoiding what has, in some cases, been identified as a rather London-centric approach, particularly in regard to commissioning, where Northern Ireland has not been adequately represented in commissioning at a United Kingdom level.

There are also the important issues of the provision of employment in Northern Ireland and supporting the cultural sector, whether that be in-house productions or the work of independent producers. Going forward, we want a greater focus on Northern Ireland, especially through equitable capital investment. Other regions of the United Kingdom got major capital investment, but Northern Ireland was overlooked. There are some excellent locations in the heart of Belfast, close to the University of Ulster and on the north side of the city centre.

Photo of Nelson McCausland Nelson McCausland DUP

I am glad that I have the endorsement of one of the other Members for North Belfast.

Several Members touched on the need to reflect cultural traditions and diversity in Northern Ireland. That has to be a commitment because education and broadcasting — the school system and the broadcasting system — are hugely important in affirming, sustaining and supporting local cultural traditions. That is why the Irish language lobby has put such emphasis on Irish-medium schools and ensuring that there is substantial provision for the Irish language in BBC broadcasting. There is an important role for broadcasting in affirming, sustaining and supporting cultural traditions, but it is important that it is done in a way that is fair and equitable.

Karen Bradley MP, Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, in a letter that was circulated, referred particularly to minority languages — in our case, Irish and Ulster Scots — culture and cultural broadcasting. That is not simply a BBC issue; it is an equality issue for Northern Ireland. It is also a human rights issue.

I notice that the former CAL Minister has now left us. Her view was that there was not a strong case for parity between the two broadcasting funds. If you look at the evidence, you see that that simply does not stack up. When I pressed her once on how you would measure need and justify spend, she mentioned viewing figures. Look at the viewing figures for programmes supported by the Irish Language Broadcast Fund; then look at the viewing figures for programmes supported by the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund. In most cases, figures for the programmes supported by the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund are higher. The one exception, I have to confess, is the programme in which Daniel O'Donnell's country music show goes to Newry. That will gain strong support from Mr Kennedy and folks in that area. I suspect —

Photo of Danny Kennedy Danny Kennedy Deputy Speaker

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Of course. any mention of Newry is worthwhile. It might be interesting to study the viewing figures for 'Stormont Today' among insomniacs and burglars.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

The Member has an extra minute.

Photo of Nelson McCausland Nelson McCausland DUP

I have not seen those viewing figures.

I suggest to Members that the viewing figures, which are exceptional, for Daniel O'Donnell and his country music show are probably more a reflection of his fan base than a measure of support and interest in the Irish language, but I leave that to others to work on.

In Northern Ireland, the approach by the BBC has been inequitable and unfair, with preferential treatment and provision for Irish culture. The BBC's core budget has funded an in-house Irish language unit, which was never replicated, and there has been a huge disparity between the two broadcast funds, as was mentioned. Sadly, the previous Culture Minister did not fight the corner for equity and parity. Her party has a message that it often puts up as a slogan — "An Ireland of Equals" — but, when it came to the broadcasting funds, some were more equal than others. Certainly, it was her cultural tradition that she was fighting for rather than any other. I emphasise the need for the BBC budget and the two broadcast funds to ensure that there is an opportunity for fairness, equity and equality, and that cultural rights are delivered to us all.

Photo of Eamonn McCann Eamonn McCann People Before Profit Alliance

I think it is fair to say that there are no two British institutions more widely admired around the world than the BBC and the National Health Service. They also have this in common: both institutions have for some time been and continue to be under relentless assault from people and interests who believe that the free market should be allowed to rip through every aspect of our lives. That aspect of what is happening to the BBC is represented in the charter, and I regret the fact that it has not been mentioned by any Member so far.

If you look at the charter document, you will see that it refers to the necessity of the BBC in the future to be aware of what it calls the wider media market. The key word there is "market". In the rest of the charter, if you read through out and comb out the phrases, you will see what is intended: the direction of travel in which the Government in London and commercial interests — most ferociously the Murdoch empire — want to force the BBC to go. On scheduling, this is what the charter says:

"The BBC must ... have regard to ... any potential adverse impact on fair and effective competition."

What does that mean? It means that, when deciding what to broadcast, when to broadcast it and on which channel to broadcast it, the BBC must take into account the effect that that might have on ITV, Sky or other providers; in other words, it is saying that the BBC must step into the commercial market, otherwise it will not, according to the charter, meet its legal responsibilities. I regard that as a very ominous aspect of the charter.

There is much in the charter that I welcome, but I am drawing attention to the things that concern me and ought to concern the House. There is little in it that would safeguard the BBC's independence in funding or governance. Ms Gildernew has already mentioned the fact that the Government will appoint the new chair of a unitary board — a very powerful position. That chair — a government appointee — will then appoint not four, as she said, but five other non-executive directors. That means that the Government of the day will be in a powerful position to influence how the BBC is run, which values it expresses and all the rest of it. That is regrettable, and we all should express our regret about it.

The Government have shown no willingness to respect the BBC's independence. Let me give you one example from the recent past. The Government decided that the BBC should fund free licences for the over-75s. What was the rationale for that? Why did they do that? They spelt it out. They were quite open about it: it was part of welfare reform. This is what was said at Westminster: "We will hit the BBC for millions as part of welfare reform". That is an absolutely disgraceful way to treat an institution like the BBC.

We in the North have a lot to thank the BBC for. I come from Derry, where Radio Foyle has phenomenal listenership figures for the size of its area. It is tremendously important for the cultural life of Derry, just as Radio Ulster is for the whole of the North. I have a particular interest in popular culture and popular music. Take the BBC in Derry with Stephen McCauley's 'Electric Mainline' programme and in Belfast with 'Across the Line' with Stuart Bailie and other people. There would not be the wonderful efflorescence of youthful talent in the area of popular culture had the BBC not given an audience to many of the young bands that were coming forward when it made no commercial sense for it do that. It made no commercial sense at all for Stephen McCauley to play the music of local bands, yet some of them have gone on to great things. Even those that have not gone on to great things have provided an uplift and an area of imagination to thousands of people that they otherwise would not have had.

I am no starry-eyed, uncritical admirer of the BBC, not by any means, but I believe that it is a precious asset for our society that should be defended. It should not be left simply to BBC employees, like the journalists organised in the NUJ, to defend its independence. Assemblies like this should step forward and defend the BBC, and I urge us all to do so because it is under threat.

Photo of Patsy McGlone Patsy McGlone Deputy Speaker

I call the Minister for Communities, Mr Paul Givan, to wind up the debate on the motion; I emphasise to him that he has 10 minutes.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

I will not need 10 minutes, Mr Deputy Speaker, but thank you for the offer.

We have had an interesting debate. Members raised a number of important issues, which I have no doubt will ultimately be reflected on by Westminster when this is being debated there, because it is a UK-wide issue. We have had an opportunity this time, unlike before, to feed into the process and influence it. When you look at the draft charter, you can see tangible evidence of the value that that input has had, and I commend my officials, who have been engaging on the issue with DCMS and counterparts in Scotland and Wales. We have, I believe, been able to put forward a case for the devolved regions of the United Kingdom that is being reflected in the charter and framework agreement. We will see tangible benefits flowing from that.

A couple of comments that I picked up from some Members were noteworthy. I was impressed with Andy Allen's effort to indicate that the charter and framework should have more of a focus on ensuring that the Opposition get better representation. Let me say that I would be delighted to have ever more publication and coverage of how the Opposition perform in Stormont to the masses. It would probably do them no good at all, but I would be quite happy to put forward such an argument.

Photo of Christopher Stalford Christopher Stalford DUP

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He will note that today's business had to be presented to us not by the leader of the Opposition but by a member of the Government, the Deputy Chair of the Committee for Communities. Yesterday was the first so-called Opposition day that we have had in the House, and the leader of the Opposition, or Mike Nesbitt's deputy, or whatever his official title is, could not be here then either.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

I thank the Member for that comment. I will leave it hanging there.

Members raised a number of points. In the round, I do think that we are very well served in Northern Ireland by the BBC. I will point out a couple of areas in which it could do a lot better in representing Northern Ireland more accurately, but, in the round, it is an institution that should be defended. Mr McCann said that, as one of the two finest British institutions, the BBC is up there. Consider coverage of the radio programmes that were highlighted by Eamonn McCann. I prefer Hugo Duncan over other programmes in the morning. I have to say that, since I took up this post, I listen even less to the news output now than ever before, but Hugo Duncan I find provides good value for money. It is worth paying the licence fee just for that slot.

When you think of how local sport is covered, think of the coverage of Ulster Rugby; think of the motorbike coverage of the North West 200 and the Ulster Grand Prix. It is fantastic, not to mention the audience that it gets when it is streamed across the globe. Therefore, with our local sports coverage, we are very well served.

Do I believe, however, that the BBC could do more? Yes, I do. It could do more in reflecting our culture. Take, for example, Scarva and the Royal Black Preceptory parade that take place. Tens of thousands of people take part in a demonstration of our heritage and culture. It is a demonstration of the arts. What coverage does the BBC give to that event? Very little, if any at all. That is something that the BBC needs to address.

Take its news output. Obviously, it is independent in taking its editorial decisions, but the BBC is an incredibly pro-European organisation, and that was reflected in its coverage throughout the referendum campaign. I think of its coverage of social issues across the United Kingdom. Again, it pursues an incredibly left-wing, liberal agenda.

[Interruption.]

When I listen to the commentators, so-called, who dominate the BBC's programmes, I struggle to find ones who are brought on as independent who ever represent the more socially conservative point of view that prevails in Northern Ireland. The BBC could therefore do more to reflect Northern Ireland accurately. There will be an opportunity now, because the Assembly will be able to hold to account the BBC; it will be able to pull people in and ask them how they are representing Northern Ireland. Those are two areas where I think that the BBC can do more.

The BBC does, of course, have to represent the values of the United Kingdom right across the world. Those values of fairness are fundamentally important, and the BBC does that well. It is to the BBC's credit that it was recognised in a Royal Charter. The organisation is unique in the way in which its incorporation is found. As an aside for Members who want to read the Royal Charter, the language on its opening page is an excellent demonstration of the English language:

"Elizabeth the Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith".

Some Members:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Paul Givan Paul Givan DUP

You can go on and read the language that is used. It highlights the role of the Minister at Westminster and uses a title that I would love to have were it to be incorporated into a body in Northern Ireland. It reads:

"to Us by Our right trusty and well beloved Counsellor Karen Anne Bradley, Our Principal Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport".

That is a fantastic demonstration of how the English language can be presented in such a fabulous way. I encourage Members to read all of that. If time permitted, I would love to read it into the record, but I think that it is a tremendous recognition of the BBC as the British Broadcasting Corporation. In Northern Ireland, the BBC should be very proud of that.

Obviously, this will have a positive impact on the content of the charter. Over the next 11 years, Northern Ireland, I believe, will get a more equitable deal from the BBC. In these documents, the BBC has set down that it accepts that it has a clear obligation to provide services for all its audiences and to represent and reflect its nations, regions and communities. In addition, under the new arrangements, the Assembly will now be able to hold the BBC to account when it falls short on that delivery.

I commend the draft BBC Charter and Framework Agreement and ask the Assembly to support the motion.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly takes note of the content of the draft BBC Royal Charter and Framework Agreement.

Motion made: That the Assembly do now adjourn. — [Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr McGlone).]