Policing and Justice: Budget

Office of the first minister and deputy first minister – in the Northern Ireland Assembly at 2:30 pm on 21 September 2009.

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Photo of Ken Robinson Ken Robinson UUP 2:30, 21 September 2009

2. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on any financial negotiations in respect of the devolution of policing and justice.         (AQO 47/10)

Photo of Declan O'Loan Declan O'Loan Social Democratic and Labour Party

4. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the current negotiations in respect of the budget for policing and justice following devolution.      (AQO 49/10)

Photo of Peter Robinson Peter Robinson DUP

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 2 and 4 together.

Preparations for the devolution of policing and justice powers have progressed in line with the process paper that we made public after our attendance at the Assembly and Executive Review Committee (AERC)on 18 November 2008. Following the Assembly’s approval of the AERC’s report on the arrangements for the devolution of policing and justice matters on 20 January 2009, the Committee has been working on a second report to deal with a further range of issues, including financial provisions, that need to be resolved before devolution. On 29 June, the deputy First Minister and I attended a briefing by the Committee’s specialist adviser on those financial issues. We look forward to the outcome of the Committee’s consideration.

On a number of occasions over the past year, the deputy First Minister and I met senior Whitehall Ministers to discuss financing issues in relation to devolution. On Wednesday 16 September, we met the Prime Minister, and we intend to meet him again early this evening at Downing Street.

In addition, our officials, and those from the Department of Finance and Personnel, engaged in detailed discussions with Whitehall Departments, including the Treasury, the NIO and the Northern Ireland Court Service, to establish the financial implications of devolution. A series of meetings has also been held with front line justice and policing agencies to examine the pressures that they will face in delivering services in the coming years.

It is our firm view that devolution should be accompanied by adequate resources to meet the challenge of the new responsibilities and to deal with financial pressures. We remain committed to the achievement of a satisfactory conclusion to the ongoing financial discussions and to working faithfully through the other remaining steps that were identified in the November process paper.

Photo of Ken Robinson Ken Robinson UUP

I thank the First Minister for that very detailed reply and for setting the issues out chronologically.

Given the sums involved, the potential that exists for derailing the entire process of devolution and the impact that it will have on the Assembly Budget, have the First Minister and his colleagues, at any stage, engaged in a procedure whereby there could be a process of rolling devolution for policing and justice?

Photo of Peter Robinson Peter Robinson DUP 2:45, 21 September 2009

The Member is right; the Assembly and Executive Review Committee identified some considerable additional pressures. Indeed, it even assisted us in dividing those pressures into those that were truly inescapable; that is, those that involved legal or contractual obligations that could not be escaped in any way. Moreover, it helped to identify areas for which there was high pressure to put funding in place although they did not legally or contractually require additional funds. Other elements were clearly discretionary.

When we look through the report, we can see several areas that we might have expected a Department, in any circumstances, to deal with using its own budget. For example, slippage may have been allowed in one area to deal with additional pressure on another. However, the Assembly and Executive Review Committee’s report involved some significant big-ticket issues, if I may use that term. In my view, it would be unwise for this Administration to take devolution on while those issues remain in their present form, because it would require those payments to be made. If the funds were not in the initial baseline, it is clear that the money would come from areas such as health, education, housing, agriculture and the environment, and so forth. We have been dealing with those issues seriously.

The Member asked about rolling devolution. The answer to his question is that not much is left to roll. If we look at the responsibilities that the Chief Constable and the police carry out independently and impartially, and if we look at the role of the Policing Board, it is clear that, beyond policy, nothing else is left to be rolled. Similarly, the judiciary is independent, and only policy and legislation would need to be rolled. Therefore, the high-end level remains. I do not see how that can be desegregated further in any way before one final move towards devolution. As we have indicated, that requires us to have other things in place.

Photo of Declan O'Loan Declan O'Loan Social Democratic and Labour Party

Members will note that the First Minister is a little tetchy today. Perhaps public criticism of him for the Office of the First Minister and the deputy First Minister’s failure to deliver on cohesion, sharing and other matters is getting to him. He is unable to indicate a firm date for the devolution of justice and policing. Will a date not be absolutely necessary before Downing Street commits to its bottom line on funding?

Photo of Peter Robinson Peter Robinson DUP

I understand why the Member wants to take attention away from his party’s problems — they will see the leader standing down for an older man or woman.

If one accepts the Member’s argument, the situation is one of chicken and egg. I argue that if one were to set a date for the devolution of policing and justice, all that the Government would have to do is sit there with their arms folded, do absolutely nothing and wait for the date. That forces us to devolve those powers before the funding issue has been resolved adequately. We all know that it is vital to resolve the funding issue before devolution, because it will not be possible to resolve it thereafter, particularly as financial pressures and restraints continue to press down on the Treasury. That is particularly the case if there is to be a new Government that will talk about even more cuts.

Photo of Danny Kennedy Danny Kennedy UUP

I am grateful for the opportunity to ask the First Minister a question. In coming to conclusions, will he take the advice of his party’s deputy leader, Mr Dodds, or that of one of his party’s Policing Board members, Mr Ian Paisley Jnr? Given recent events, is he prepared to express full confidence in Mr Paisley?

Photo of William Hay William Hay Speaker

Order. Once again, the Member is abusing the House’s procedures. That question in no way relates to the supplementary question, and the Member knows that quite well.

Photo of Alex Maskey Alex Maskey Sinn Féin

I thank the First Minister for his responses so far. On a general point of principle, the First Minister, aside from all the commentaries made so far, has made the point that further public expenditure cuts will be made in future comprehensive spending reviews. In light of that, is it wise or appropriate that the future financial arrangements for policing and justice here be left in the hands of a British Government Minister?

Photo of Peter Robinson Peter Robinson DUP

I hope that there is a desire throughout the Chamber for us to have the maximum level of devolution in Northern Ireland, including policing and justice. I am not embarrassed to say that; I follow a long line of unionist leaders who believed that it was an imperative. The founding fathers of this state, Carson and Craigavon, would not have accepted devolution at Stormont without policing and justice powers being devolved. Even Brian Faulkner, in his day, would not allow the continuation of devolution in Northern Ireland because policing and justice powers were taken away. My clear view is that I want to see policing and justice powers come to Northern Ireland. However, we must remember that even if policing and justice powers lie in Northern Ireland, the budgetary arrangements will still lie with the Treasury. Simply having the responsibility here allows the Treasury, to some extent, to have it at arm’s length. That is why it is vital that we get the right arrangements from the Treasury before we take the responsibility.

Photo of Simon Hamilton Simon Hamilton DUP

Will the First Minister outline to the House what role he envisages that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee might have in considering any package that Her Majesty’s Government would propose for the devolution of policing and justice powers?

Photo of Peter Robinson Peter Robinson DUP

The Assembly appreciates the role that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee has already played. It brought a report to the House on the institutional arrangements that found favour with Members, and I believe that our institutional arrangements will enjoy the confidence of the community. The Committee has moved on to the next stage, which is to examine the funding arrangements. I know that it has done a considerable amount of work and has brought in a specialist adviser to assist it.

The deputy First Minister and I have taken many of the Committee’s suggestions on board in our discussions with the Prime Minister and others. I understand that the Committee will want to finalise its report on the financial arrangements. It may want to see the deputy First Minister and me again before it does so, and I am pretty sure that we will be content to meet the Committee once again. The Committee’s report is one of the essential elements of the process that we agreed last November: that the Committee would come back to the Assembly with its report on funding and other arrangements.