Lord Hunt of Wirral:

Moved by Lord Hunt of Wirral

8: Clause 4, page 2, line 30, leave out “negative” and insert “affirmative”Member’s explanatory statementThis Amendment would require regulations transferring securities of a steel undertaking to be subject to the affirmative procedure.

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 8, 10, 12 to 14 and 40, standing in my name and that of my noble friend. I thank the Minister for working constructively with us on Amendments 12 and 13. It is vital that where the Bill confers regulation-making powers of real consequence, the default should be the affirmative procedure. Amendments 8 and 10 would apply that principle to the core transfer powers, regulations transferring securities, and regulations transferring property rights and liabilities. We understand the Minister’s argument that in exceptional cases powers may need to be exercised.

Turning to Amendment 40, I ask the Minister for a clear assurance that a thorough impact assessment will be brought before both Houses of Parliament after the various powers in the Bill have been used. Given the potential effect on taxpayers, workers, investment and the wider steel industry, they must assess whether these exceptional powers have delivered the outcomes claimed for them.

Finally, Amendment 14 would remove Clause 50. The Constitution Committee was clear that the broad power allowing the Secretary of State to modify the law in relation to a share or property transfer

“should either be removed or significantly tightened”.

That is a serious recommendation from an important committee of this House. The Government should either accept the committee’s recommendation or make much clearer in the Bill the limited circumstances in which such a power may be used. I look forward, therefore, to the Minister providing some assurance on Amendment 40 and on the Henry VIII powers. I beg to move.

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 15 and 16 in my name, but first I speak in support of Amendments 12 and 13 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, which I have co-signed. Importantly, these would add necessary additional parliamentary control over continuity obligations and property transfer regulations. We moved similar amendments in the Commons that failed to attract sufficient support there.

Regarding Amendment 10, the Minister has convinced me that the need to quickly transfer property rights transcends the necessity of moving to an affirmative form of approval from a negative regulation. That is why I have not co-signed Amendment 10.

I tabled Amendments 15 and 16 as it is important that Parliament must be kept informed once any nationalisation is effected. Amendment 15 would create a new Clause causing there to be a report on principal transfer powers from the point at which those powers are exercised under the Act. It says that the Secretary of State must

“make a written statement to each House of Parliament setting out … the progress, and the operational and financial performance, of the steel undertaking in respect of which a transfer power has been exercised, and … the impact of this Act, including (so far as it is possible to assess) its effects on the steel industry in the United Kingdom, on employment and on the public finances”, and that this duty

“continues until no steel undertaking remains in public ownership”.

I hope the Minister has something positive to say on this, which includes reflecting on how the communities and skills requirements are being met in whichever part of the UK is affected by any nationalisation and subsequent changes.

It is a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, was not with us in Committee, because he would have participated in a debate on an amendment that was very similar to Amendment 15, which covers not only the territory of Northern Ireland but the whole of the United Kingdom. I feel that the noble Lord’s point is important, but if it is important for Northern Ireland then it is important for the rest of the UK. I think he will see that Amendment 15 seeks to bring that across our entire country.

Amendment 16 seeks to create a stakeholder advisory committee. I will not repeat my speech from Committee, but its aim is to have stronger input into the steel strategy from steel users. The Minister responded with news that the steel council may be augmented by additional new members. I hope he can elaborate some more on how the voice of steel users is reflected more effectively in order for the Government to avoid such issues as those that have been created by the steel tariffs.

My Lords, I draw attention to a part of Amendment 16. I am delighted to see that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has included the words

“industries that rely on the supply of steel, including the defence sector”.

That is one of the themes that is running, perhaps in the undergrowth, behind much of the thinking on the Bill. We must have a steel industry that is capable of responding, and quickly, in an emergency to the needs of the defence industry. The model has to be developed with that in hand. That is why I very much welcome the fact that that is written in the amendment.

My Lords, my Amendment 45 arises from an exchange in the other place last week with the Minister, Sir Chris Bryant. Members will be aware that Northern Ireland’s situation is different in so far as, for goods, it is covered by the Windsor Framework. Therefore, EU quotas on steel obviously apply. The issue is that we have the preposterous situation of having quotas of steel flowing from one part of the United Kingdom to the other. These two regimes are clashing.

The Minister in the other place indicated that HMRC is

“taking steps to confirm the arrangements with industry”.

Bearing in mind that this was happening with about 36 hours’ notice, it was a huge challenge for businesses and so on to get their heads around it. He went on to say:

“The Government will continue to provide guidance and support to traders moving goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland through the trader support service”.—[Official Report, Commons, 30/6/26; col. 764.]

That is another example of why we do not have a free internal market within the United Kingdom. Can the Minister confirm whether both these matters have taken place: has HMRC taken the steps to confirm arrangements with industry, and is the Trader Support Service providing that guidance? It was not available last week, which is why I tabled this amendment.

The other issue arising is speciality steels, because of the United Kingdom’s current limited ability to produce them and because some firms which intend to produce them are not actually doing so. I will give the Minister an example of our concerns. If a European company has a branch in our jurisdiction in Northern Ireland—for instance, Harland & Wolff—and has access under its quota arrangements to speciality steel for, say, the defence sector, which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, mentioned and which is a particular issue in my mind, and it bids for defence work that will require a significant amount of speciality steels, those steels may not be able to be sourced within the United Kingdom. Our anxiety, therefore, is that competitiveness, price and other things could create difficulties.

I fully understand the rationale for having quotas, because there is huge surplus capacity throughout the rest of the world. We understand that that has to be managed but, given that we cannot necessarily get the steels from within the United Kingdom, can the Minister give an assurance that those steels will be available, that the quotas are adequate—whatever we say about having them in the first place—and that there is sufficient headroom to ensure that companies’ competitiveness will not be significantly damaged by the unavailability of those products within the United Kingdom?

My Lords, I support the Amendment from my noble friend Lord Empey and will speak to the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, in Amendment 15, which unfortunately does not cover the specific circumstances of Northern Ireland. I support Amendment 15, but my noble friend’s amendment goes further to, I hope, give protection to Northern Ireland.

The UK introduced a new steel trade measure on 1 July—

I have a point of information. The Bill has nothing to do with steel tariffs. We have had several Statements on steel tariffs in your Lordships’ House, to which I do not think the noble Lord spoke. I am happy to debate the effect of nationalisation on the Northern Irish market and to dispute that issue. However, the issue of tariffs is not covered in this legislation.

I recognise the noble Lord’s point about the tariffs, but the issue is that we need some protection, and my noble friend Lord Empey believes the only way to have that protection is through this Amendment. There is no other mechanism for protection. We have had Statements and I have asked Written Questions, but the answers we have had are unsatisfactory. Why is it not reasonable to table an amendment to this legislation that could assist the processors and manufacturers in Northern Ireland?

Maybe the Minister will find another way of doing this. If he can then that would be extremely helpful to us, but we want to raise the issue and it is not beyond our reasoned power to do so. At the moment, there is no other way of doing that except through this legislation.

The tariffs are extremely important. We now have dual tariffs. We have not only EU tariffs, because we are part of the EU economic base, but UK tariffs. This is important in Northern Ireland, and we and our processors, fabricators and manufacturers will have to deal with it. It is unfair for the noble Lord to indicate that it is unreasonable for us to table this amendment—

I am just confused, because the wording of Amendment 45 from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, asks for an impact assessment on the likely effects on Northern Ireland, and the wording of paragraph (b) of my proposed new Clause in Amendment 15 asks for an impact assessment of the effects on the United Kingdom, which, of course, includes Northern Ireland. I wonder what Amendment 45 brings in addition that is not covered by Amendment 15. Thereafter, I will shut up.

I thank the noble Lord for his Intervention, but will he not agree that we are in a different situation in Northern Ireland from that in GB? We are under a double tariff. We are under a tariff from not only the European Union but the United Kingdom, which does not impact on those processors, fabricators and manufacturers in GB. So why is it not reasonable to ask for a special impact assessment for Northern Ireland? I think that is quite reasonable. I am surprised that the noble Lord has indicated that he does not want that. Surely, if he wants transparency and a reasonable outcome to this, it is only reasonable that we would have that impact assessment for Northern Ireland. I am happy to give way to the noble Lord if he wants to argue and demonstrate why that is not reasonable. If you are a Northern Ireland fabricator, like I have in my area in Northern Ireland, you will possibly have a double tariff now: one from the European Union and one from the United Kingdom. That is totally unfair and totally different—

My Lords, I think we have given the noble Lord a fair hearing. I ask him to bring his comments swiftly to a close so that we can get on with the business in hand today.

My Lords, I support my noble friends on the issue of the affirmative resolution. I think it is a superior device, given the importance of the matters that could be brought before us. I also fully support the idea of a proper impact assessment, which should of course include the impact on Northern Ireland, which may well be different because of the Windsor Framework—an arrangement which, in another life, I opposed very strongly.

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and for ensuring the ongoing scrutiny of any steel undertaking that is subject to the use of the powers in the Bill. Before turning to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I will reflect on conversations I have had with noble Lords from across the House in recent weeks as we have sought to secure agreement on the drafting of the Bill.

The noble Lords, Lord Sharpe, Lord Hunt and Lord Fox, have provided detailed feedback on and suggestions for how parliamentary scrutiny can and should continue following any acquisition. Following consideration of their feedback, I am pleased to confirm the following government commitments, which reflect the importance of transparency and parliamentary scrutiny.

I confirm that a debate will take place in both Houses on the steel strategy and the impact of the Bill, within 12 months after Royal Assent. Alongside this, the Secretary of State will lay a quarterly Written Ministerial Statement for at least the first year that a steel undertaking is in public ownership, reverting to a slower rate after that. Where a Minister considers it appropriate, the Written Ministerial Statement may provide an update on jobs, communities and other issues; I will detail this further in subsequent groups. As I have already set out, the Government will lay a Written Ministerial Statement following the acquisition of a company, setting out how the public interest test has been met.

In addition to these commitments on the impact of the Bill, I can confirm that, following any acquisition of a steel company, the company’s new chair would be able to attend a Select Committee to set out their plans for the publicly owned steel undertaking. I hope that that reassures the noble Lord, Lord Redwood. Alongside the chair’s attendance, the Government will write to Select Committees, including the Business and Trade Select Committee, with information following any acquisition, and subsequently on any future plans for any steel undertaking that falls within the scope of the Bill’s powers, and to respond to any specific requests from a Select Committee. I emphasise that it is for the Select Committees to set their agenda. If the Government, or the chair of a nationalised company, are asked to provide information and attend meetings, we will of course do so. These commitments build on the statutory reporting requirement on financial assistance in Clause 59, the company’s annual report and accounts, and the quarterly Written Ministerial Statements, which I have already set out.

Any nationalised steel undertaking would not be exempt from the corporate reporting requirements set out in the Companies Act 2006. This Act contains various reporting requirements that vary depending on the size of the entity. The Government will work closely with the company and, where necessary, if there are any material changes to the company’s circumstances outside the regular reporting cycle, the Government will be able to ask the company to produce an interim report on that particular issue.

Noble Lords have also raised a concern about ensuring that stakeholders are appropriately engaged in decision-making. I will provide further detail on this later, but I emphasise that the Steel Council will continue following the publication of the steel strategy. The council is made up of representatives from across the sector, and they would include a representative from any publicly owned steel company.

In addition to our continued engagement with the sector, I recognise the importance of ensuring that there are opportunities for Parliament to engage with the sector. I therefore confirm that the Government will convene an ad hoc round table on the future of the steel sector six months after Royal Assent. I hope that this series of commitments reassures noble Lords that the Government are committed to ensuring that Parliament can scrutinise any publicly owned steel undertaking where appropriate.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for his continued engagement with the Bill. I reassure him that Minister McDonald, the Minister for Industry, recently met with Minister Price from the Welsh Government, and my officials continue to engage with Welsh Government officials to try to secure a recommendation of legislative consent for agreement on the Bill. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for the discussions on these matters, and I hope to update the House on the outcome of these conversations at Third Reading.

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in debates on Amendments 12 and 13, and particularly the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, for their constructive engagement with me over the past few weeks. The Government respect the concerns that have been raised. Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have been clear that the Government are committed to as much transparency as possible with regard to the powers in the Bill. We have listened carefully to the cases made during our debates to date and have considered where it may be possible to amend the procedure for the power without harming the Government’s ability to carry out their objective under the Bill.

I am therefore delighted to confirm that the Government will support Amendments 12 and 13, which amend parliamentary procedure for continuity of obligations and enforcement powers. Under these amendments, the power to make regulations in relation to certain aspects of continuity obligations will change from the negative procedure to a draft affirmative procedure unless the Secretary of State considers the made-affirmative procedure necessary, and the power to make regulations on the enforcement of obligations will change from the negative to the made-affirmative procedure respectively. This compromise reflects your Lordships’ House at its best.

I shall address the other amendments in this group. Amendments 8 and 9, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, set out the Opposition to the parliamentary procedure associated with the exercise of the share and property transfer powers in Clauses 4 and 15 respectively. While I recognise the magnitude of these powers, I must emphasise that any use of the principal transfer of powers would need to be exercised promptly to ensure operational and legal certainty. I cannot overstate the importance of this. In a scenario where the Government chose to use these powers, they would need to be exercised at pace in a commercially sensitive environment. The affirmative procedure would introduce significant delays to the transfer process and create a lack of clarity regarding ownership. This in turn would significantly affect the business, particularly supply chains and third-party contracts. This must be prevented.

Amendment 14 was tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, and they have indicated their opposition to Clause 50 remaining part of the Bill. I am afraid that I have to disagree unequivocally in this case. I have previously set out that removing the clause would risk undermining the effectiveness of the Bill. The Bill confers powers that interact with the complex area of commercial company and insolvency law in a way that was not anticipated during the drafting of the legislation concerned. There will therefore be some tension in the way that the powers are applied. Clause 50 allows us to smooth over those challenges and avoid any unintended consequences or obstacles to a successful transfer.

I am sympathetic to the fact that it is difficult to justify a power of this nature when its potential use is quite abstract at this stage. By its nature, it is intended to deal with unforeseen circumstances in non-consensual, highly atypical transfer scenarios, and I remind noble Lords that it was necessary in the Banking Act context as well. As an example, the power could be used to modify or disapply certain corporate Laws, such as disapplying shareholder voting or approval requirements to prevent any delay to the transfer. That is not to say that we plan to use it in this way but merely to illustrate its potential utility. It is worth repeating that the power can be used only to ensure that the transfer of power can be exercised effectively. It cannot be used outside the context of nationalising a steel undertaking to change or amend other laws. The use of the power will be subject to the draft affirmative procedure except in particular circumstances that justify proceeding on a “made affirmative” basis. I hope that this provides some comfort regarding the issue.

Amendment 5, also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, would require the Secretary of State to provide quarterly Written Ministerial Statements to Parliament updating on the progress of the nationalised steel undertaking and the broader impact of the Bill. I thank the noble Lord for our discussions on this point, and I recognise the appetite for further parliamentary scrutiny of the approach to a nationalised undertaking. As I have already set out to the House, I can confirm that the Government will commit to provide quarterly Written Ministerial Statements to Parliament for at least the first year of a steel undertaking in public ownership. This reflects the Government’s commitment to ensuring that Parliament is appropriately informed about the progress of any publicly owned steel undertaking.

I turn to Amendment 16, and thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for his continued discussions on stakeholder engagement throughout the passage of this Bill. This includes the amendment he has tabled, which would require consultation with the stakeholder advisory committee on whether an Intervention was in the public interest before exercising the powers in the Bill. I believe that the noble Lord and I agree that stakeholder engagement is critical to supporting the Government’s vision for the future of the steel industry and to ensuring appropriate scrutiny. As previously mentioned, I am pleased to confirm that we will shortly be inviting the UK Metals Council to join the Steel Council, which will ensure that the views of downstream users can be fed into engagement and discussions.

However, as I previously set out, any decision to exercise the transfer powers would need to be made at significant speed. The amendment would delay the exercise of the transfer powers, creating additional risks to the business viability and ongoing operations and uncertainty over ownership. In addition, there are commercial sensitivities associated with any decision to exercise the transfer powers, making it extremely difficult to consult in advance of a decision. While I cannot accept the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I will reflect on the range of ongoing engagement that Ministers and officials from my department undertake with industry and stakeholders.

A notable forum for engagement is the Steel Council, which I have already confirmed will continue following publication of the steel strategy. The council will support the delivery of the strategy by providing evidence and feedback on evolving or emerging policies that affect the sector’s competitiveness, and by providing strategic oversight of the working groups on research and development, investment and skills. Having considered the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I can confirm that the Government will convene an ad hoc parliamentary round table on the future of the steel sector six months after Royal Assent. I hope this reassures the House that the Government regard stakeholder engagement as critical to the revitalisation of the steel sector.

The noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, have tabled Amendment 40, which would require the Secretary of State to publish an impact assessment of the operation and effect of the Bill within two years of Royal Assent. This is straightforward for me to address. As the Government have already published an impact assessment for the Bill, in line with our Better Regulation Framework requirements, further impacts will be assessed as part of a post-implementation process or review. I reassure noble Lords that if the powers under the Bill are exercised, we will publish further impact assessments to accompany any transfer regulations. Following this, the Government will consider any further impacts in the post-implementation review. As I have already set out, the Government will ensure that a debate on the steel strategy and the impact of the Bill takes place in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords within 12 months of Royal Assent. This reflects our commitment to ensuring that parliamentarians remain well informed about our plans for the steel sector.

I turn to Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. I will cover only the point about the impact assessment and will not touch on any of the tariffs or quotas that were mentioned, together with the contributions from the noble Lord, Lord Elliott. If noble Lords would like, I can write separately, but I will not go into those details in my speech. Amendment 45 would require the Secretary of State to publish an impact assessment of the likely effects of the proposed exercise of a power on Northern Ireland. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for his engagement with the Bill, and I assure him that any use of the Bill’s transfer powers will require an impact assessment. If the use of the transfer powers affected Northern Ireland, or Wales or Scotland, the effects would be captured in the impact assessment, as appropriate. As I have already noted, where relevant, the Government would consider further impacts during a post-implementation review.

Finally, I thank all noble Lords across the House for their commitment to ensuring that parliamentarians have the appropriate powers to scrutinise the Bill. I hope my comments reassure all noble Lords.

My Lords, this has been an important debate. I pay tribute to the Minister. His approach to the Bill has been exemplary. We may disagree, and we do disagree, but the Minister has set an example that will be difficult for his ministerial colleagues to follow. He has listened and cared deeply about all the points we have raised. I am sure I speak for the noble Lord, Lord Fox, as well as for my noble friend and friends across the House, when I say that the Minister has not only listened to us but responded in positive terms, and, where he has not been able to agree, he has explained why he cannot agree.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for making sure that we do not forget the vitally important Welsh dimension. I thank my noble friend Lord Redwood for always scrutinising the public expenditure side of the Bill.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that, with him, I believe we have now received from the Minister a series of comprehensive assurances, particularly on the impact assessment, which will enable us to proceed in a positive way.

The noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard, have raised issues that—as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, pointed out—do not fall directly within scope, but they do fall within the impact assessment. That is why it was important that those points were raised.

The Minister will argue that there is a case for a Henry VIII power in an emergency Bill of this kind. We remain concerned about the breadth of Clause 50 and the precedent it may set, but I am grateful to the Minister for his engagement with this debate, and I thank him. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 8.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.

Clause 15: Property transfer regulations