Lord Fox:

Moved by Lord Fox

1: Clause 2, page 1, line 13, at end insert “and,(b) has had regard to the impact of exercising that power on the public finances.”Member’s explanatory statementThis Amendment would add a new condition that the Secretary of State must consider before exercising principal transfer powers.

My Lords, in moving Amendment 1, I will speak to Amendments 7, 9 and 24 in my name.

In Committee, I noted the difficulty of phasing the exercise of the principal transfer powers and the need for scrutiny by Parliament—there is a dichotomy. At the heart of my concerns then was that Parliament would potentially be signing a blank cheque. On the other side, there may very well be a need to move swiftly in the event that a decision is made to nationalise a steel asset.

The first three amendments in my name in this group go some way to brokering this compromise. They offer two different routes of addressing the issue of the Secretary of State’s obligations regarding the financial cost of any Intervention. Amendment 1 directs this attention to Clause 2 and inserts an obligation on the Secretary of State to take into account the impact on public finances before exercising the principal transfer. However, during Committee and subsequent discussions with the Minister, it became clear that the Government feel they have some legal reservations about any modification of Clause 2. Therefore, Amendments 7 and 9 seek a similar action but focus on Clauses 4 and 15 respectively instead.

Overall, of course, government decision-making relies on tests that must be conducted by accounting officers. I expect the Secretary of State would have the impact on public finances in his or her mind at all times, and I am sure there would be some Treasury Ministers leaning over that particular Secretary of State in the event that any decisions were made. However, by putting this responsibility in the Bill, it will be easier to hold the Secretary of State and the Government at the time to account on the value for money of any issue. In the event that the Minister feels constrained in accepting Amendment 1, I hope he will accept Amendments 7 and 9.

Amendment 24 addresses a different issue and returns to pension liabilities, which we debated in Committee. It is clear that, in the event the Government exercise the principal transfer power enabled by the Bill, the pensions of all ex and current workers of that asset become an important responsibility. This amendment is clear in its assertion that Parliament needs a view on these liabilities. If the Minister is unable to accept this amendment, I hope he will take the opportunity to clarify the Government’s approach to pensions from the Dispatch Box. I beg to move.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for reminding us of the importance of contingent liabilities and the need for the Government to complete due diligence before any acquisition. He rightly says that in a hypothetical case—not British Steel Scunthorpe—it might be necessary to move quickly, and then there will have to be some trade-offs. But if we are talking about British Steel Scunthorpe, there is obviously no need to move quickly. The Government moved very quickly many months ago, and there can still be proper analysis. I would hope, indeed, that as Ministers and their chosen executives are now responsible for British Steel, while they do not own the assets, they would have done a lot of this very important preparatory work on discovering the contingent liabilities.

Where in Amendment 11, the contingent liabilities are mentioned by category, there is an omission which could be extremely important: liabilities to employees for past problems with safety and health, and—God forbid that this does not happen—for any liabilities that might follow now that the business is under the operation or control of Ministers and their chosen executives, if some safety or other health problem arose. Where people are running these very large, industrial businesses, with the obvious threats of a very powerful fire in the furnace and the dangers of extremely hot liquid steel being moved around, it is crucial that Ministers and their chosen executives have taken all the right decisions on making sure people have the right protective clothing, there are the right protocols, and there is an absolute segregation for the employees from the risks. There also needs to be an understanding of whether there have been any longer-term health risks from the atmosphere around the blast furnace or the intense heat of some working conditions.

If Ministers have not already done so, they need to take this very seriously. Whenever I was responsible for a big plant, my main nightmare was that something would go wrong on safety, and that would be unforgivable. I am not expecting the Government to give ground on these amendments, but it would reassure the House and the wider public if the Minister could tell us more about where they have got to, at least in general terms, with exposing the contingent liabilities on pensions, safety and employee health, as well as with the other financial matters mentioned clearly in these amendments.

My Lords, I am delighted to support the Amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and I agree with his earlier analysis. As it happens, I agree with a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, said on this as well. Whereas there may be certain safeguards in Scunthorpe, there is considerable worry in somewhere like Port Talbot arising from some of the experiences we have had, which I referred to in Committee. I hope the Minister will be able to give some assurances on this.

I rise to speak to Amendment 11 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. It is vital, as we have said throughout our consideration of this Bill, that there is clarity about the liabilities which may be acquired when the Government exercise a principal transfer power. That is particularly important in relation to environmental liabilities. Steelworks are substantial and long-standing industrial sites and any environmental liabilities associated with the transfer could represent a significant future cost to the taxpayer.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for his amendments in this group, which rightly focus on the need to consider the public finances. We have consistently raised the issue of the costs associated with share and property transfers and pension liabilities when compensation is assessed. I thank the Minister and the Government for their engagement on these amendments, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say and hope that at least some of these amendments will be accepted.

My Lords, before turning to the amendments before us, I begin by placing on record my sincere thanks to the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe, Lord Hunt and Lord Fox, for the constructive and collegiate way in which they have engaged throughout the passage of this Bill. We have not agreed on every point, but their contributions have been thoughtful, serious and rooted in a shared recognition of the importance of the UK steel industry. I am grateful for the time they have taken to meet with me to test the Government’s position and, for raising their concerns in such a fair and friendly spirit.

Responding to the points raised in this group, I will speak first to Amendments 7 and 9 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. Over the course of this Bill’s passage, I have had ongoing and constructive conversations with the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, about the cost of nationalisation and the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. The noble Lords and I agreed that the Government must consider the costs of any nationalisation before exercising the powers. As I have stated to this House previously, existing public spending governance controls provide for this, with cost and value-for-money considerations embedded in the Managing Public Money principles and the well-established process of accounting officer tests.

However, the noble Lords have sought a statutory requirement on the face of this Bill. Through our conversations, I have been persuaded by their arguments, and I am pleased to say that the Government will support the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, which requires the Secretary of State to consider costs before exercising the share or property transfer powers in Clauses 4 and 15. We hope the House will agree. Our agreement on this issue reflects the commitment of noble Lords to ensure that this Bill is as comprehensive and effective as possible. It is an excellent representation of this House’s ability to work collaboratively, and I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, for their engagement on this issue.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, has also put forward Amendment 1, which would require the Secretary of State to have regard to the public finances when considering exercising the principal transfer powers. Given that the purpose of this amendment is achieved through Amendments 7 and 9, I do not think this is necessary in addition.

The noble Lords, Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Wirral, have tabled Amendment 11, which would require the Government to provide a statement to Parliament outlining the value of contingent liabilities associated with a steel undertaking, and the steps taken to minimise taxpayer exposure to them, prior to an Intervention. As I have set out previously, I have concerns about creating additional hurdles that must be cleared prior to the exercise of the transfer powers, given the likely need to act at pace. There is also a practical difficulty in publishing the details of a private company’s financial information prior to a nationalisation. None the less, the Government share the desire of the noble Lords to minimise the taxpayer’s exposure to liabilities as far as possible, and that will inform our decision-making. If a steel undertaking is nationalised, we would expect its annual report to include details of its liabilities, where relevant. We will discuss liabilities again in later groups today, and I look forward to that discussion. I hope that that helps to clarify the matter and provides the noble Lords and the rest of your Lordships’ House with sufficient reassurance.

Amendment 24, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, requires that where the Government have exercised the transfer powers, the independent valuer must prepare a written estimate of a steel undertaking’s pension liabilities and provide that to the Secretary of State, who should then publish the estimate before Parliament. Pension liabilities will of course differ for different companies. If the Government were to decide that it was in the public interest to nationalise British Steel, I reassure noble Lords that our understanding is that there would not be significant pension liabilities, as the company has a defined contribution scheme and so pensions would be funded from an existing pot. In cases where pension liabilities are relevant to the value of a steel undertaking that is subject to the powers under the Bill, the independent valuer should consider that as part of their assessment. None the less, publishing this in isolation would be unhelpful without the full context. The Government have already committed to publishing the outcome of any compensation scheme. Therefore, I do not consider this amendment necessary.

I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords, even though there are amendments in this group that I do not support.

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. Before coming to the Minister’s words, I will pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, on health and safety. I turn his attention to Amendment 21, which returns to the issues of health and safety and environmental liabilities. Although his point does not need to be made again, the debate on that amendment is when the Minister can respond to it.

I thank the Minister for his response to Amendments 7 and 9; I believe that they will take scrutiny a step forward. His approach to accepting them is very heartening. It is therefore clear that, if we accept Amendments 7 and 9, we do not need Amendment 1.

On Amendment 24, I am reassured by the Minister’s comments on one particular steel asset. Although we do not expect it, in the event that the future Act is used for other assets, pensions may become an issue. Picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, particularly in Committee, there have been some missteps around employee pensions. It is very important that, whoever the Government of the day are, they do not make those missteps again and create the situation we have seen and on which the noble Lord commented.

On that basis, and in thanking the Minister for his acceptance of Amendments 7 and 9, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 1.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.