Lord Fox:

Moved by Lord Fox

24: Clause 52, page 34, line 15, at end insert—“(5A) Compensation scheme regulations must include provision which specifies that payment of compensation may not be made until any written estimate under section 54(4A) is laid before Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statementThis Amendment and others in the name of Lord Fox require that payment of compensation cannot be made until the Secretary of State has published a written estimate of the environmental liabilities of the steel undertaking, provided to them by the independent valuer.

My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 25 to 28, 39 and 45, all in my name—I think I must have gone slightly mad at the time.

As promised when we touched on the contingent liabilities earlier, this group homes in on how such liabilities affect possible compensation in the event of nationalisation. As I set out at Second Reading, the possible environmental liabilities and future remediation costs for a site as large as Scunthorpe, let us say, are potentially huge. Scunthorpe has been there for a long time and is a very big site. The site has also employed a lot of people for a long time, and their pensions and any contingent liabilities should be fully understood by Parliament, as we discussed in the debate on the previous group.

Those contingent liabilities are likely to majorly impact the current and future valuation and sustainability of any steel undertaking. The current draft has evaluating the environmental liability as a voluntary exercise and the pension liability seems to have been ignored, but I take on board what the Minister has just said and perhaps withdraw that sense, as some elements seem to be covered.

Amendments 24 to 27 together would require that the payment of compensation could not be made until the Secretary of State had published a written estimate of the environmental liabilities of the steel undertaking provided to them by an independent valuer. Amendment 28 would require that the payment of compensation could not be made until the Secretary of State had published a written estimate of the pensions liabilities of the steel undertaking provided to them by an independent valuer.

Amendment 39 would require the Government to report on the compensation paid under any compensation scheme regulations made under Clause 52. Finally, Amendment 45 seeks to place a limit on financial assistance and compensation without additional parliamentary approval. This proposed new clause would prevent the Secretary of State paying more than £500 million—which I point out is quite a lot of money—in financial assistance and compensation under the Bill unless the House of Commons passes a resolution authorising them to do so. In this way, we would ensure that there was no blank cheque.

I am happy to approach these issues in other ways, as long as the material objective of this group of amendments is achieved. I beg to move.

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has raised this; it was also something that I mentioned in our previous debates. In my experience of old industrial sites, the land under and around the plant is often heavily polluted and may contain toxic substances. Clearly, the Government need a report on that and would need to consider it not only when considering any possible compensation to a previous owner but as part of the costings of the whole project. Sooner or later, that land will have to be cleaned and if there is any current risk to water courses, it might be sooner rather than later that action would need to be taken. I trust that will all be properly investigated and has been properly investigated where we have already taken operational and financial responsibility for the plant in the case of Scunthorpe.

On other liabilities which can occur in these situations, which probably should be mentioned for the sake of completeness, it is a good idea to find out about current and retired staff to see whether any long-term health issues have arisen which can be attributed in any way to the processes they have been handling and the working conditions they have been in. Those, too, need sensitive treatment and can, if something has gone wrong, amount to significant sums of money.

My Lords, I want to speak briefly to Amendment 28, which deals with pension liabilities of the undertaking that has gone into state ownership. Some noble Lords will remember in our pensions Bill debates that we had the example of Allied Steel and Wire, where employees, who had been given all sorts of promises that they would be safeguarded, feel that they have been very badly let down. If the Shadow of Allied Steel and Wire is to find its way to Scunthorpe, or any of the other locations where these questions may arise, the failure to safeguard the interests of those pensioners will militate against employees wanting to accept the course being taken by the Government unless provisions are written into the Bill of the sort provided by Amendment 28. There may be other ways of doing it, but certainly these assurances need to be given.

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for tabling these amendments, which raise an important point of principle. Where the Government are taking a steel undertaking into public ownership, the environmental, pension and other contingent liabilities which may fall on the taxpayer should be clear to Parliament and, of course, to the public. The Minister in the other place suggested that further disclosure was unnecessary because the Government already had a reasonably good understanding of the potential liabilities and that the independent valuer would take them into account, but that is not the same as ensuring that Parliament can see the likely costs before compensation is paid and further public money is committed.

I was very taken with my noble friend Lord Redwood’s comments about the environmental impact. From memory—and I might have this date wrong—I think the oldest of the blast furnaces dates back to 1939, so it is inconceivable that that site is not contaminated in some way, which we probably do not have any accurate historical records for.

I have also recalled the reason why I was a bit lukewarm on my own Amendment 20. I hate to say this, and I hope I never have to admit it again, but it is rather because I preferred Amendment 27 from the noble Lord, Lord Fox—a shocking admission to have to make.

Environmental remediation, pension obligations and historic liabilities can amount to very substantial sums. The Government are using taxpayers’ money, and Parliament should be able to scrutinise the liabilities assumed alongside the compensation and support provided. For those reasons, the amendments make a valuable contribution to transparency and accountability, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

My Lords, just to update the Committee, we are 2-1 up.

It was Harry Kane.

Harry Kane, thank you.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, has several amendments in relation to the compensation provisions in the Bill. I appreciate his careful attention to detail, which is a key aspect of this Bill, and will respond to the points raised in order. I will preface these points by noting that, if introduced, compensation regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, thereby providing opportunities for parliamentary scrutiny.

Amendment 27 is on the approach to environmental liabilities in the compensation process. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, has indicated that this would prevent the payment of compensation until the independent valuer has delivered to the Secretary of State a written estimate of the environmental liabilities of the steel undertaking in question and the Secretary of State has published that estimate and laid it before Parliament.

It is important that the independence of the valuation process is maintained. It is not appropriate for the inputs to the valuation exercise to be disclosed before the valuer reaches their determination. This may risk exposing the independent valuer to undue pressure while they are still deliberating on an outcome, thereby undermining the independence and fairness of the compensation scheme. None the less, the Government would have the power to direct the independent valuer to consider environmental liabilities in their determinations of compensation. We also intend to allow the final compensation determinations to be made public, including any consideration of environmental liabilities carried out. There is an opportunity for further parliamentary scrutiny, as the compensation scheme regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, allowing all Members to debate the specific framework set at that stage.

Amendment 24 would prevent the payment of compensation until an estimate of liabilities arising from the environmental and health and safety matters under Clause 54(4) is provided to Parliament. An important principle of the compensation process is that it is assessed independently to ensure that affected parties are treated fairly. The proposed amendment would begin to erode this independence by making the payment of compensation contingent on parliamentary scrutiny of one of the factors that would inform the outcome. It is therefore not feasible to proceed with the proposed amendment. As a general point, compensation scheme regulations would require the independent valuer to consider environmental liabilities as part of the assessment. Additionally, in the event that a steel company is nationalised, we would expect it to publish an annual report setting out its financial position, including any liabilities.

I now turn to Amendment 28. The noble Lord has tabled a similar amendment that would require the Secretary of State to publish an estimate of the pension liabilities of the relevant steel undertaking before compensation is paid. I understand the concerns the noble Lord has about taking on unknown liabilities and putting undue pressure on the public balance sheet. If the Government decide to nationalise British Steel, subject to the public interest test, I can reassure the noble Lord that the Government would not be taking on a large contingent pension liability. The company’s pension scheme is a defined contribution scheme with a pot funded by contributions made by the employees and the company over time. In other cases, the pension scheme may be based on different arrangements, but we have built flexibility into the Bill to address these circumstances on a case-by-case basis.

The pension power in Clause 44 allows us to adapt to regulatory changes, standardise terms and adjust contribution minimums. Where necessary, it also allows for consideration of a fair Division of pension liabilities between the transferor company and the government corporation. This follows the approach in the Banking Act. Where relevant, pension liabilities will form only part of the picture in the valuation exercise, and publishing them in isolation without the wider context would not be helpful. As I have already mentioned, following nationalisation we would expect contingent liabilities to be included in the company’s annual reporting.

I am more sympathetic to the noble Lord’s Amendment 25, which would require that the compensation regulations provide for the appointment of an independent valuer in all cases to determine compensation. The current wording makes it discretionary whether an independent valuer is involved in any given case. In practice, it is very likely that the Government will consider it fair to provide for an independent valuer to be established in compensation scheme regulations to consider any compensation for a transferor. The clause is currently discretionary because there could be situations where independent valuation is not required. For example, where the Government and the transferor agree on a sum, it would be unnecessary for the legislation to require that an independent valuer be engaged. However, I will reflect further on the noble Lord’s points and consider how I expect to return to this on Report.

Amendment 26 would ensure that environmental and health and safety obligations are considered as part of the assessment of compensation. I hope that I can provide some reassurance on this point. As the Government anticipate that where the principal transfer powers are used to nationalise a steel undertaking, compensation scheme regulations would require an independent valuer to take these matters into account when conducting their assessment. I am not sure that the specific drafting of the amendment achieves the intended effect, but we can look at whether there is anything more we can do to bring clarity on this point.

Amendment 39 seeks to extend the reporting requirements for financial assistance so that they also cover compensation provided under Clause 52. However, in the case of compensation, the amount, if any, will be payable only once, based on the independent valuer’s determination, and will not change over time. As I have already set out, we will publish the amount of any compensation. The question of regular reporting does not arise, as no new information will be provided.

Amendment 45 would cap the amount the Government can pay as financial assistance or compensation. Financial assistance more generally will be covered in further detail in the following group, and I will cover it more fully then. However, a fixed cap of any kind of financial assistance would risk constraining the Government’s ability to respond effectively to circumstances as they arise. A cap on compensation will also cut the compensation process itself, which is a crucial safeguard of the Bill.

Taken together, I hope that I have given the noble Lord, and all noble Lords, the clarity required on this subject. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Redwood, Lord Wigley and Lord Sharpe, for their contributions on this group of amendments, and ask that Amendment 24 be withdrawn.

Before the Minister sits down, will he please address the question of why steelworkers in Scunthorpe, Port Talbot or anywhere else should have faith in the Government’s provisions for pensions when they failed to safeguard the pensions of Allied Steel workers in Cardiff and continue to do so?

I will have to write to the noble Lord, because I do not have specific information on that particular pension scheme.

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who was saying what I was thinking, but he said it with authority: he understands the issue for those workers quite viscerally. It was in my mind that some level of protection or safeguard needs to be there. I thank the Minister for his very thorough answers. They are so thorough that I will have to spend some time with Hansard, reading them through, to find out how much comfort there is in there. His comments regarding Amendment 25 were certainly encouraging, and I hope we can come to some sort of agreement. On the others, I will have to come back him later, but, with those comments, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 24.

Amendment 24 withdrawn.

Clause 52 agreed.

Clause 53 agreed.

Clause 54: Further provision about independent valuation

Amendments 25 to 31 not moved.

Clause 54 agreed.

Clauses 55 to 57 agreed.

Clause 58: Financial assistance