Baroness Smith of Llanfaes:

Moved by Baroness Smith of Llanfaes

409A: After Clause 182, insert the following new Clause—Policing: devolution to Wales(1) Schedule 7A of the Government of Wales Act 2006 is amended as follows.(2) In section B5 (crime, public order and policing)—(a) omit “and policing”, and(b) omit line 41 “policing”.(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations make further provision under this section.”Member’s explanatory statementThis new clause seeks to devolve policing to Wales, by removing it from the list of reserved matters in the Government of Wales Act 2006.

My Lords, my Amendments 409A and 409B concern the devolution of policing and youth justice to Wales. These are the same amendments that I tabled in Committee. I will keep my remarks brief, considering the late hour, but I hope that the Minister can provide further clarity, because the questions raised in Committee remain unanswered.

Not long after Committee, the police reform white paper was published. There are some good things in it, particularly the focus on neighbourhood policing, but it does not address the unfairness of policing powers being withheld from Wales compared with the other devolved nations. At that time, the Minister stated that the White Paper’s proposals for Wales concern organisation rather than devolution and that devolving policing is not right for Wales at this time. However, I say respectfully that, if we are reorganising the whole system, this would seem to be precisely the moment to align responsibility with accountability through devolution.

The abolition of PCCs fundamentally reshapes the governance of policing. In England, functions will move to mayoral authorities, yet Wales has no equivalent structures. It is logical that the Welsh Government should be part of the answer, whatever that answer is, to the newly created gap. Yet we still do not know what model the Government envisage for Welsh police governance, whether devolution of policing even remains under consideration, despite consistent recommendations from independent commissions, or how Welsh financial contributions, already substantial, will be recognised. In 2024-25, only around 43% of policing expenditure in Wales came from the UK Government. The remainder came from Welsh government contributions and council tax. This remains a reserved matter in which the UK Government retain that decision-making power, yet Welsh citizens already fund most of their policing.

On youth justice, I welcome the Minister’s confirmation that work is under way on the manifesto commitment that they have themselves. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, noted in Committee, Wales’s child-first approach has helped to drive

“a sharp and sustained decline in first-time entrants over many years. He also highlighted that children in conflict with the law often have “overlapping needs” and that the “jagged edge” of the current settlement can impede the joined-up support that those children require.

Crucially, many of us have argued that youth justice is a contained, high-impact area where devolution would be feasible and important, demonstrating new intergovernmental respect and co-operation. The Minister has previously referred to a programme of work in relation to youth justice. Today, I would like to find out more on the progress of this: what its scope is, when conclusions will be reached and, if legislative change is anticipated, through which vehicle and on what timetable. Without this detail, Parliament cannot scrutinise the direction of travel. Scotland and Northern Ireland have full responsibility for policing and justice. Wales remains the outlier.

I am not asking the House to decide on these matters today; I am asking the Government to provide the clarity that Wales deserves. When will proposals on Welsh police governance be published, what is the timetable for decisions on youth justice devolution, and how will accountability be secured for systems largely funded in Wales but not yet controlled in Wales? I look forward to the Minister’s response at the end of the debate. I beg to move.

When we had a debate in Committee, Wales was squeezed into the very short time we had on the Thursday afternoon before a debate had to start. It is no one’s fault but Wales is being squeezed again. It is now 11.30 pm and this is serious—it is no-one’s fault, and I am not blaming anyone; it is the way the cookie has crumbled. It seems to me that what we want is a proper debate. On the previous occasion, in inviting the noble Baroness to bring her amendments back, the Minister promised a fuller debate. At this hour of night, I do not really think that is sensible, but I will say two things.

First, as the parliamentary process seems to produce no proper forum for the discussion of these serious issues, and the Minister said he had very serious arguments to support the non-devolution of policing, will he agree to have a proper meeting about these things so that we can look at how policing has operated in Scotland and Northern Ireland to the benefit of those two nations, and how it could benefit Wales? Secondly, why is Wales treated as though justice were an island removed from Wales? Justice is not an island; it is an integral part of policy. Separating out areas of justice from the rest of internal affairs is almost, I think, unique across the world to Wales as a self-governing nation.

On the two particular matters, I do not want to add much about policing, but I want to say a word about youth justice. Since the debate in Committee, the Government have published A Modern Youth Justice System: Foundations Fit for The Future. If I may say so, with genuine respect—I put that in because, sometimes, it is said of lawyers that, when they say “with respect”, they mean without any respect at all, but I mean this with genuine respect—the foreword written by the Deputy prime minister, Lord Chancellor and Minister for Justice presents an irrefutable argument for the way in which youth justice must be properly aligned with other services.

What is fascinating about that paper, however, is that there is not a single word about what is to happen to youth justice in Wales. There are excellent arguments as to what is to happen in England. Had we had a debate at a sensible hour, I was going to weary your Lordships, I hope not unduly, by looking at the arguments so powerfully made by the Deputy Prime Minister. This is not the time to embark on that argument: I would weary noble Lords unduly at this hour of night. In the first debate on Report, however, the Minister rightly emphasised how important it was that the Government stuck to their manifesto commitments when emphasising why we had to have a respect order. In the face of a powerful argument that did not add anything to what we already said, he said that it was a manifesto commitment. I therefore hope he will be able to explain the manifesto commitment to look at youth justice and its devolution, and say what is to be done.

I found it very disappointing listening to the evidence of one of the Welsh Ministers, Mr Irranca-Davies, of the Senedd’s Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, when he was asked repeatedly about youth justice. He said that discussions were going on and they were working hard, but he could not say anything of any detail and hoped that they would be able to do something soon.

I very much hope for two things. First, I hope that the Minister and those who take a different view can have the opportunity for a robust argument, so that we can see what each side says. The report of the Silk commission, the report of the commission that I chaired, and the report of Rowan Williams and Laura McAllister’s commission all argued for the devolution of both these things, and no one has ever presented an argument as to why they are wrong. It seems to me that a robust discussion would be the best way forward.

I also hope that the Minister is able to explain tonight how the Government intend to honour the manifesto commitment and how the powerful logic of the Deputy Prime Minister’s arguments can be applied not merely to England—although I accept here, of course, that it is most important that they apply to England—but how they are to be applied to Wales.

My Lords, the Minister will know that when I was First Minister of Wales, I strongly supported the devolution of policing, and my position has not changed. I fail to see why Wales alone, of the four nations of the UK, should not have the powers to shape policing and policing priorities.

I have heard arguments about crime being cross-border. Well, that is true of England and Scotland as well, and indeed of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland for that matter. Simple co-operation between police forces is a way of overcoming that. I saw that in 2013 when we had the NATO summit in Newport. Police officers from all over the UK had come to help police that event.

The Minister will, I am sure, be relieved to know that I am not looking for him to agree with me tonight. I know the view of the UK Government that, currently, policing should not be devolved in Wales. Nevertheless, we now have a lack of clarity as to the future, because with the abolition of the PCCs, the suggestions that have been made about how policing will be made accountable in the future are based on English political structures that do not exist in Wales. We do not yet know what will happen in Wales. That is important because there are, of course, arguments that we have to make to ensure that Wales is properly recognised. Wales has its own civil contingency forum, language, Laws and ways of policing that must be reflected in the future. With that in mind, does the Minister agree that a way must be found to take this forward? Will he agree to meet me, and perhaps others, to see how we can deliver better policing that nevertheless reflects Wales’s national distinctiveness?

I turn very briefly to Amendment 409B, in which I have a personal interest. This was a recommendation that came from the Brown commission, of which I was a part. Naturally, I fully support the devolution of youth justice. I was delighted to see this included in the manifesto that the Government were elected on in 2024 and I look forward to its delivery.

My Lords, when my noble friend was the First Minister, and slightly before that, when I was the Secretary of State, I was less of a campaigner for this issue than he was. But I recognise that times have changed over the last few years. I am told that devolution is a process rather than an event—something that I have witnessed myself over the last 20-odd years that I have been involved in Welsh politics at a ministerial level. But two or three things have occurred literally within the last year or so that mean we have to bend our minds to something that I was not all that keen on all those years ago.

First, as my noble friend said, the Labour Party manifesto indicated that youth justice and probation were now to be matters for the Welsh Government and the Welsh Senedd. Like my noble friend, I was a member of Gordon Brown’s commission, and that was something we all agreed on. I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response on those specific issues, which we must not forget.

On the issue of policing generally and its devolution, the view over a number of years was that it was quite hard to devolve policing without devolving criminal justice. The noble Baroness referred to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Scotland historically has had both over many centuries. Northern Ireland has not—it did and then it did not after the collapse of the first Stormont arrangement. Indeed, when I was Northern Ireland Secretary, I held responsibility for criminal justice and for policing until the Good Friday agreement made the difference by recommending that both those issues should eventually be devolved to Northern Ireland, which they have been, and very successfully too.

Two things have occurred over the last few weeks. First, my noble friend the Minister came to the Chamber and told us that police and crime commissioners were to be abolished. I do not think that that was in the manifesto, but I entirely concur with it. However, if we are to abolish police and crime commissioners, the responsibility for accountability has to lie with somebody. In England, there are mayors and the new organisations which will follow the devolution Bill, but in Wales there are no such institutions. There are no mayors and no local authorities which currently have a responsibility for policing. We have to find out what happens in Wales when that Bill goes through. That makes us think more about general police devolution.

Secondly, my Right Honourable Friend the Home Secretary has now decided in the white paper on policing that there will be far fewer police authorities and police boards in England. What happens then? Will the current four police forces in Wales be abolished? Will we have two or one for the whole of Wales? I do not know but obviously there will be a change if the White Paper affects Wales as much as England.

Those two issues mean that we have to bend our minds to what we do about policing in the months ahead. Those months ahead will inevitably be complicated by the fact that in 60 days’ time there will be an election in Wales, the outcome of which none of us knows but it will undoubtedly be something we have to deal with in a rather different way from how we have over the past 100 years.

My Lords, given the hour, my contribution to this debate will be a short one.

I first apologise for not having spoken to similar amendments on this subject in Committee because of illness. I express my gratitude to my noble friend Lady Brinton, who is no longer in her place, for taking my place on that occasion. My thanks go also to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, for bringing the amendments in this group back for debate on Report.

On these Benches we agree with both Amendment 409A on the devolution of policing and Amendment 409B on the devolution of youth justice. They are in line with both Welsh Liberal Democrat and our federal Liberal Democrat policies. Had this debate taken place at an earlier hour, we would have joined the noble Baroness in the voting Lobby.

I will speak very briefly on youth justice, which was seen as an early candidate for phased devolution. The Welsh Government have been able to influence youth justice policy through devolved areas such as education, health and social services, and have established a youth justice system that prioritises prevention, rehabilitation and the rights of children over punitive measures.

According to a Senedd research document published in January this year,

“The Welsh Government has said that it has agreed with the UK Government for officials in both governments to work together to ‘explore options’ where responsibilities in the youth justice system could be ‘realigned’”, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, referred to. What progress has been made there?

But despite that and other affirmative statements, the Senedd Equality and Social Justice Committee warned last year that

“the UK Government could row back its promises on the devolution of youth justice … in Wales”

Disappointingly, experience is showing us that this is what appears to be happening.

In that context, yesterday’s leaked documents, which revealed the Prime Minister’s advice to his UK Ministers to be prepared to go against the wishes of the Governments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland when taking decisions—albeit in financial matters, I agree—speaks volumes about the attitude towards the devolved nations.

With the reality of May’s Senedd elections on the horizon, it seems that very little progress will be made on this issue in the short term. I hope the next Welsh Government, which I hope is a progressive one, continues to pursue further devolution, including the devolution of policing and youth justice, and I can assure them in advance of the continued support of these Benches.

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, for bringing forward Amendments 409A and 409B, which raise the question of devolving policing and youth justice to Wales. As discussed in Committee, these amendments engage an important constitutional issue about the structure of the devolution settlement. It was argued that devolving these responsibilities could allow them to sit alongside other public services already devolved to the Welsh Government, such as education and health.

However, as was also noted, these matters currently form part of a single legal jurisdiction covering England and Wales. Policing and youth justice operate within that shared framework which supports co-operation between forces and national capability across the system. Changes of the scale proposed here would represent a significant constitutional shift. A matter of such importance cannot properly be considered through two amendments to an ever-growing policing Bill. Indeed, I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd: he is absolutely right that this certainly requires more time. It would require a broader, more fundamental discussion about the future structure of the devolution settlement which, in respect of policing, we on this side, I am afraid, would resist. I look forward to the noble Lord’s remarks.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, for returning to the issue on Report. We find ourselves in a very strange situation today where the noble Baroness who moved the Amendment resides in Wales, the Shadow Minister was a former Member of Parliament in Wales and resides in Wales, and the Government Minister is a former Member of Parliament in Wales and resides in Wales. We are having a bit of a Welsh fest today where every Member who spoke also resides in Wales. I apologise to my noble friends for keeping them here on this Welsh discussion. I have to say to the noble Baroness that I regret it being this late in the evening. It is slightly out of my control because of the way in which the debates have fallen.

As has been seen in the debate, there are a number of different views and within Wales there are a number of different views on this matter. The Government are still of the view, and the position remains clear, that policing operates effectively within a single integrated England and Wales criminal justice system, and it is really important that we examine that.

As my noble friends Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Lord Jones of Penybont mentioned, there is a lot going on in the policing world at the moment, not just in Wales but in England. There will be legislation to abolish police and crime commissioners and an examination of the model for their replacement. As has been said, that model will include the mayoral model in England but also a local authority model. We have given a very strong commitment that the structures in Wales will be a matter for discussion in the review that is being undertaken, pending the legislation that will come before this House, when parliamentary time allows, to abolish police and crime commissioners.

A review of the number of police forces, currently 43, will be undertaken in the next few months and completed in the summer. There will be significant engagement with the Senedd, Welsh police forces, current police and crime commissioners, Welsh Members of Parliament and anyone else who wishes to have a view on what the format should be in relation to any revised structure in Wales. Self-evidently, there are a number of options: the existing four police forces; a smaller number of police forces; a single police force; and the different types of governance structure that could be put in place. That will be part of the discussion that is undertaken.

I am following what the Minister is saying with great interest because it responds to the numerous points that have been made about the reorganisation that is needed to make sure there is no vacuum. The point I would press is that we have an election for the Senedd coming up in May. Trying to get a coherent discussion, debate and conclusion at this point becomes extremely awkward. It would be good if it could be started immediately, before we find ourselves in the middle of an election, with the intention of bringing everybody on board very rapidly afterwards. The Minister will understand the challenges.

I fully do. The review that is being undertaken of force sizes throughout the whole of England and Wales will commence very shortly. The terms of reference, if they are not public already, will be very shortly. The input of the Senedd, the political parties, the current Administration and, potentially, an Opposition Administration in the Senedd is absolutely valid for that discussion. At the end of that period, we want to try to have an understanding of the preferred models through negotiation and discussion on issues such as force size and governance. That is really important because there has to be legislation at some point to abolish police and crime commissioners. In doing that, there will be opportunities to discuss force size and governance accordingly.

I would like to take up the suggestion of a meeting made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. I am very happy to meet any colleagues who have spoken today. It may be more appropriate that we do that either with the review team for force size and current structures or directly with the Police Minister, but I will reflect on that request and get back to the noble and learned Lord at a sensible hour to determine how we undertake that.

I understand the support from the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys—another resident of Wales speaking, in effect, from the front bench, in this case on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. I have set down the principle: the Government do not believe that this reorganisation is about devolution. We have different views on that, but that is the principle of where we are. There are issues still to look at, such as force size and governance, that are for discussion to get the best deal for Wales and avoid, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has said, causing any interregnum in service. I plan to meet some new police officers in Wales shortly, and I will be engaged as someone who has an interest in the matter for this House.

The system currently provides operational resilience, shared capability and strong cross-border co-operation. We do not believe that fragmenting it would improve outcomes for victims or communities. That is the Government’s position. There is an honest disagreement here, but there are still issues that need to be resolved.

On the issue of youth justice, which was mentioned in the debate, it is true that the Ministry of Justice is working constructively with the Welsh Government on delivery and oversight arrangements. The manifesto committed to considering the devolution of youth justice and that work is under way. Consideration does not equate to immediate legislative change, which is why I cannot accept it in the Bill today. No decision has been taken to devolve youth justice through this Bill, but that work is under way. It is a complex issue, and we want to get the best outcomes, but that is the position. I hope the noble Baroness can accept that in the context that I put to her today.

In looking ahead to a future legislative vehicle for progressing the devolution of youth justice, does the Minister have a specific timeline in mind and what stage of the programme have the Government got to?

I cannot give the noble Baroness a timeline or a commentary on that discussion, but what I can say, as I have said already, is that work is under way. This Government were elected for a five-year Parliament and work is under way—that is what I can say today. She will undoubtedly test us again, as there will be opportunities for questions and debates, and there will be legislative scrutiny whenever any legislation is brought forward on the question of police and crime commissioners. However, today, with the principled position the Government have taken, I cannot accept the noble Baroness’s amendments on devolution or on youth justice. As I have said to her and other interested Members, a process is under way on the question of the structures and governance in Wales, which anybody can contribute to in the next few months. The work under way on the justice issue is being dealt with by my colleagues in the MoJ and by the Senedd.

Whatever happens in the election, there will be a Welsh Government of some form, though I do not know what that will be. We are discussing this with the Welsh Government now and we will discuss this with the Welsh Government afterwards. As the Minister responsible for devolution in the Home Office, I have regular meetings with counterpart Ministers in Wales on those issues, as do my policing colleagues. I hope that, with those reassurances at this late hour, the Amendment can be withdrawn.

I thank the Minister for his answers and all noble Lords for contributing to the debate. What is most important from what we have gathered this evening is to ensure that, whatever arrangement is decided going forward, it is decided not just in England for how it can benefit and work for police forces in England but that there is particular engagement in Wales.

The Minister mentioned engagement with the Senedd and police forces in Wales, but making sure that it is genuine engagement, and that they can design what the system looks like for the benefit of Wales and not have just another version of what will happen in England, is important. I think that all of us who took part in this debate would welcome further discussion to find out more about the next steps. I am sure we will have further discussions about this, but today I will withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment 409A withdrawn.

Amendments 409B and 409C not moved.