Baroness Coffey:

Moved by Baroness Coffey

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, leave out “or Wales”

My Lords, group 1 is perhaps not the ordinary place to start when we are considering the issue of Wales, but I have tabled 40 amendments with specific reference to Wales for a reason. We will get into aspects of this in more detail and I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, for degrouping some of their amendments, because I think it is important that we have a considered debate about how the Bill could potentially apply in Wales. I am also conscious that the Committee will want to get on to the key principles that we will cover in later groups.

My reason for raising this is that the Bill started as a judge-led process, with quite a focus on, in effect, decriminalising parts of the Suicide Act. I am in no doubt that that is a reserved competence: having the one judicial system. I completely accept that. That is not what I am seeking to get into. However, what has happened in the Commons, and even more now in Committee in your Lordships’ House, with the amendments that have been tabled, has basically flipped the Bill into being a Bill on NHS-provided assisted dying—or “assisted suicide”, or “assisted help”; I have forgotten the varieties that are now being proposed on what it is going to be called—and without doubt, health is devolved to the Welsh Government, and therefore the Welsh Senedd.

There have been a number of debates in the Welsh Senedd, and the Welsh Senedd has consistently said that it does not want assisted suicide to go ahead, particularly in Wales, under its devolved elements. That vote was actually taken fairly recently and, as a consequence, I am concerned that aspects of the Bill will, in effect, potentially be breaking the Sewel convention, although I accept that the Welsh Government are now on to their second legislative consent Motion and will have more.

When I have asked the Government questions, I have tried to do it through freedom of information requests, just trying to understand what concerns the Government have had about the Bill and why it has needed, I think, 11.7 full-time equivalent civil servants working in the Department of Health and more than three in the Ministry of Justice to work through and understand the issues that have made the Government decide, “That’s not workable”, “That’s not practical”, “Let’s think about the legal element”. I have been blocked at pretty much every turn. I have been told, on FoI elements, “It’s going to take too long to answer you”. Indeed, I am still waiting for an answer from the Department of Health, but I got another one just saying, in effect, “Well, the Minister mentioned it basically in Committee in the other place, you can look it up yourself”. I am not sure that that is the attitude that is going to help us get through this detailed understanding of where we are.

Returning to Wales, the Government have been having weekly technical meetings with Welsh Government officials. It has not been possible to get information about what has been discussed. Recognising that both Governments are supposed to be neutral on this, this is not a case of government policy formation, which is protected under the Freedom of Information Act, but nor do I feel it is in the spirit of considering the most important Bill of this entire parliamentary Session, indeed of this entire Parliament.

The other aspect I am concerned about is what is happening in the Welsh Senedd. There is clearly a difference of view between the Welsh Senedd and the Welsh Government, and information is not currently being released. I am not trying to get into a whole debate on Wales, but can the Minister give us an understanding of what is happening? I appreciate that the sponsor of the Bill may have the answers, but let us be candid: it is the civil servants who have been doing all the technical work and the sponsor has been doing the more general policy ideation—at least, that is what Ministers told the Select Committee. I know the Select Committee had limited time and I tried to get a discussion about Wales during it, but it was not possible.

I am not going to delay debate on the first group, but it needs some careful consideration. I could make lots of references to reports, which are online, but there is a huge difference in what the Welsh Senedd believes should be devolved and what needs a legislative consent Motion. I am still awaiting an answer from the Government about whether they have requested the legislative consent Motion.

There are many more clauses the Welsh Senedd believes should be in here, and I am looking for a straightforward response from both Ministers on the clauses that they believe are not devolved and why. Ideally, I would like to hear it on the Floor of the House but if the information is not available today, I would be grateful if it could be responded to in a letter to be laid in the Library so that everyone has a proper understanding of what is the responsibility of this House and what is the responsibility of another Parliament. We need to be transparent about what that means, because we should not assume that we have the opportunity to ride roughshod over what other devolved Administrations and Parliaments believe. I beg to move.

My Lords, I rise to support the Amendment standing in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey. Some people may detect from my accent that, although I hail from the great city of Bangor, it is not the great city of Bangor in north Wales but the great city of Bangor in Northern Ireland. I have particular empathy with the amendments that have been put forward by the noble Baroness due to my experience as a Minister in a devolved Administration. The clarity the noble Baroness seeks goes to the heart of the relationship between the devolved Administrations and Westminster, and it is of particular relevance to this Bill.

Generally speaking, a Minister in a devolved institution will face three categories of legislation. First, there will be reserved matters, which are entirely within the purview of Westminster—national issues, which I think everyone would accept. Secondly, there will be a range of issues which, although not strictly reserved, are of such obvious applicability across the United Kingdom that a legislative consent Motion should be applied. I do not see the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, in his place, but on occasions even the SNP Government in Scotland have been prepared to sign up to legislative consent Motions. The third category—the bulk of legislation—is situations that should be decided locally, where a devolved Government and a devolved Parliament can choose whether to follow what is happening at Westminster and in England, to take a different path in seeking either to virtually replicate or to amend, or to go in a tangentially very different direction. That is at the heart of democratic accountability in devolution.

I believe that this is an issue that should be decided in Wales. It is an issue that should clearly fall into category three. We all know that we have a very unusual constitutional set-up in the United Kingdom, where devolution to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is on a slightly different basis in each case. That can produce some unusual aspects. What we have today is a certain level of anomaly, because this legislation falls into what may be described as a fourth, hybrid category. As the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, highlighted, the distinction is between the aspects that deal with criminal justice and criminal responsibility, and those that deal with health and social policy, with the former being reserved and the latter being devolved.

It is very clear that the heart of the Bill makes major decisions that impact on health and social policy. However, we are left with a situation for Wales that means, if this goes through unaltered, that the criminal responsibility will be lifted but there will be no regulations coming from this House as to how that will actually be brought about. It is the equivalent of this House saying that we are going to bring in new road safety measures, which will not apply to Wales, but if you are caught speeding on the motorway there could be no criminal sanction against you. What we have potentially arrived at for Wales is the worst of all worlds.

We need to take a step back. We need to ensure that the wishes of the Welsh people, as exercised by the Senedd—they may change over time—are respected. Rather than, in effect, imposing something that then has to be more or less corrected in Wales by way of changes to their health and social policy, we should be allowing the issue of assisted dying to be decided by the Welsh Senedd. If they decide to make those changes, this Parliament should then reflect them by way of changes to the criminal justice system, which I think would be relatively easy to do.

In the absence of that, the importance of these amendments, as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, is that if we cannot get things definitively the right way round, we can at least get a level of clarity over what aspects apply to Wales, rather than a potential wall of obfuscation. This is an ideal opportunity for the Government and the sponsors to highlight where exactly the demarcation is, which will be very helpful as we move through the rest of this Bill.

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Coffey’s amendments in this group. As I looked at the title of the Bill, “terminally ill”, and then saw Clause after clause talking about the patient and the doctor’s involvement, I was clear that this was a medical Bill. We had the Secretary of State for Health saying that he was in charge of it, and the Department of Health and Social Care, which seconded about 30 officials to help rewrite it, in a way taking ownership of it. Then I asked myself: why on earth are we legislating for Wales when health is a devolved matter in Wales and the Senedd is in charge of health matters? This is where it is really Pythonesque, because although this is a medical Bill in England, it is a criminal Bill in Wales, and criminal matters are not devolved to Wales. How on earth can the same Bill be a health Bill in one country of the union and a criminal Bill in another?

On 23 October last year, Senedd Members, including the First Minister, Eluned Morgan—the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan—and the Health Minister, Jeremy Miles, voted against a Motion calling for a new law to allow assisted dying in Wales and England. Miles had earlier warned of “huge ramifications” for Wales if the law changed. In total, 19 Senedd Members voted in favour of the Motion, with 26 against and nine abstentions. However, the Senedd does not have the power to change the law on assisted dying in Wales, so the vote was symbolic. The Senedd does not have the power to legalise assisted dying, but the Health Minister indicated that it is likely that future legislation will require another vote to give Parliament consent.

The Welsh NHS, which is almost totally devolved and overseen by Cardiff politicians, would be responsible for implementing the law. However, I understand that the Senedd can still vote on whether to implement the legislation, as parts of the Bill touch on devolved areas, so the Welsh Government would need to pass specific regulations and gain an affirmative vote from the Senedd before the Welsh NHS could provide the service. I am not a great fan of the devolved Administrations, but they exist and they have a genuine job to do. In Wales, this would mean that their NHS and its doctors would have implemented all the provisions of an English law, which they had no power to change. That does not seem right. If the Senedd in Wales can be trusted to run the NHS in all medical facilities in Wales, it should be trusted to make its own terminally ill end-of-life Bill.

Next year there will be Senedd elections, and on current polling there may be a large Majority of Plaid Cymru and Reform Members elected. It cannot be right that they inherit a Bill relating to the deaths of about 35,000 people in Wales each year and that they have no say over how their constituents die.

Of course, the Senedd could refuse to give consent to the legislation, but I suspect it will be threatened and blackmailed into doing so. It will be told that it is the English Bill or nothing and that Wales has no power to do its own law, so the Senedd had better approve it or else. But the Senedd could do its own law; all we have to do is grant it the constitutional power to do so.

Clause 42 says:

“The Welsh Ministers may by regulations make provision about voluntary assisted dying services in Wales”.

Subsection (3) says that the Secretary of State may also

“by regulations make provision about voluntary assisted dying services in Wales”.

Subsection (4) says that these regulations

“could be made by an Act of Parliament, and … would not be within the legislative competence of the Senedd if it were contained in an Act of the Senedd”.

So because the Senedd does not have the legislative competence to make some of the necessary law, this clause is giving the Government the freedom to let the Senedd make those Laws that it does not at the moment have the legislative authority to make.

I suggest that there is the answer to the problem. If the Government can use this Bill to allocate new legislative powers to the Senedd to make some laws relating to this Bill, they can go further and grant a power for the Senedd to draft and pass its own law on terminally ill patients.

As the Delegated Powers Committee has pointed out, there are already extensive Henry VIII powers in the Bill, and it should be an easy matter to draft a new clause that removes all references to Wales in the Bill but grants a power to the Senedd to do its own Bill. Wales wants control of its own death regime and cannot do it since the Bill is nonsensically regarded as a criminal law Bill in Wales. We have the power to give the Senedd the power it needs to determine its own laws on this matter.

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Coffey’s amendments. I will raise two issues, one on the principle of how we are dealing with devolution. I also want to bring to the Committee what I hope is some valuable experience from my time in the House of Commons about the detail of how these services are delivered on the ground, particularly for people who live close to the border. Given that these are life and death issues, the detail of how these services are delivered is very important.

One lesson from the way in which the 1999 devolution settlement was delivered was that there was literally no thinking done about some of the complexity of the cross-border issues. It took the best part of a decade of hard campaigning work to get this right. In the interim, many of my former constituents sadly did not get the life-saving medical treatment that they deserved as residents in England. This is incredibly important. It is an issue that I suspect will be known only by those of us who have had some responsibility for this. I am sure the Minister will be well aware of it and, if she is not, she will be able to ask her officials to dig out all the background and history for the cross-border delivery of healthcare and the protocols that are now in place, because they will be very relevant to how these services are delivered.

In the first part of my remarks, I will touch particularly on the aspect that my noble friend Lord Blencathra raised. This is partly about my fundamental view that I do not think that delivering this legislative outcome through a Private Member’s Bill is very satisfactory. This issue is one of the reasons why. We have a very uncomfortable situation in which we accept that this is devolved in Scotland—and the Scottish Parliament is busy legislating to deliver assisted suicide in Scotland according to how it wants to deliver it.

I personally do not believe that assisted suicide is a healthcare Intervention, actually, but it is clear from what Health Ministers have said that they think this will be delivered by the National Health Service. If it is to be delivered by the National Health Service, you would logically expect it to be done, as my noble friend said, in accordance with the devolution framework. But because what is actually happening here is the Amendment of the Suicide Act to put in place the ability for people to help someone take their own life and not be caught by the Suicide Act, that effectively makes it a criminal justice matter. That is not devolved, which is why we are having to legislate for England and Wales. I do not think that makes any sense.

It would have been much better if the UK Government had had some sensible conversations at the beginning of this process with the Welsh Government and come to an agreement about how this was going to be dealt with, either—as my noble friend said—by devolving the power to the criminal law in Wales and allowing a fully devolved solution, or by the Welsh Government and Senedd agreeing that we could legislate at Westminster for both the principle and the operational delivery mechanisms on an agreed basis. We have ended up with a very uncomfortable halfway house, which I do not think will be at all satisfactory, where we will be making decisions here for a service being delivered in Wales, not doing it in line with the wishes of those elected by the people of Wales. We are not really having that proper, sensible conversation.

I turn now to the operational issues. I have looked at the Bill, and because it says almost nothing about how this will be delivered in practice, I will flag up a couple of issues. The Bill applies to people ordinarily resident in England and Wales and registered with a GP practice. For those who do not know, my former Constituency is the Forest of Dean. One of the complexities if you live in the Forest of Dean is that there are parts of it where you live in England, so will be covered by the law and the NHS in England, but you will be registered with a GP practice either physically located in Wales and governed by Welsh Laws or physically in England but part of a wider practice in Wales. That matters because you will get your primary care delivered according to the rules of that practice. Some of my former constituents have primary care delivered according to Welsh rules, even though they are resident in England. People will be familiar with the fact that there are differences there—about whether you pay for prescriptions, for example.

The really important issue, on which the Bill is silent, is that when you receive secondary care—when you are referred to hospital for treatment—it was the case before we put in place the protocols that now exist that my former constituents in England, entitled according to the law to get services in England, were being referred to secondary care in Wales. There, waiting lists were longer and there were not the same provisions about choice. Therefore, those residents of England were not getting the services to which they are entitled. The Bill does not distinguish between whether you are resident in England or Wales.

The concern is that if the health service in England delivers the service in a particular way but Welsh Ministers decide to deliver the service in a different way, with different checks and balances and different professionals delivering that service, it is not clear in the Bill whether someone who lives in England but is registered with a GP practice in Wales would be entitled to the English or the Welsh provisions. Given that this is about life and death situations, that matters. I, for one, am not content to leave it to secondary legislation. The Bill should spell out the rights you have as a resident of England to the services you get, and if you live in Wales the rights should be according to the provisions of the Senedd.

I see Ministers chatting to each other. This matters. If this is not got right, there will be people in England facing life or death situations who do not get the health professionals involved in this. There will be people potentially coming under the ambit of the Bill who get social care. Social care is devolved, so the level you get, the rules about it and the entitlements to it are different in England and Wales. There has been a lot of talk about the necessary provision of psychiatric services. The provision of secondary care—psychiatrists, for example—is devolved, so it will not be the same in England and Wales. Getting this right matters.

The legislation says nothing about delivering services accurately to people based on their residence. At the moment, we have lumped together whether someone is ordinarily resident in England and in Wales; I do not think that that is satisfactory. You should get the services in England that this House and the other place decide are appropriate, and English Ministers—namely, Ministers in the UK Government responsible for the health services in England—decide that. If you live in Wales, you should get the services that Health Ministers in Wales decide you get. We need to make that very clear in the legislation.

My noble friend’s amendments raise some important issues that go to the heart of the legislation. They have not been thought through by the promoter and sponsor of the Bill. Having raised them today, I hope that Ministers will start thinking about them and will come back to the House with amendments themselves. Otherwise, I will put down amendments—and I suspect other noble Lords will, too—to correct this on Report. It is a massive gap, and it will be an issue for residents in England and Wales, particularly those close to the border, who make up one-quarter of the Welsh population. It will be raised by Members of Parliament up and down the border. My experience as a former Member of Parliament is that it is better to get these things right—

A noble Baroness:

You have made your point.

I am going to finish very quickly if you do not interrupt me. The time limit is very clear, and I am going to stick to it, but I am finishing my point. I was coming to the end of my point, and that was not necessary. The Government Chief Whip made it clear that these are incredibly important issues, and we will debate them with courtesy and respect. I will treat people whom I do not agree with on this issue with courtesy and respect. As I have not exceeded the time limit, I do not expect to be yelled at. Let me just finish my point and then I will sit down.

My experience—I am going to go over the time limit only because I was interrupted—as a former Constituency MP is that it is better to get these things right in advance, when you draft the legislation, and not spend years trying to fix them afterwards.

My Lords, I am not an expert on delegated powers, so I must admit to a bit of confusion. I hope that either the Minister or the Bill’s sponsor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—or maybe both—can help clear this up.

My understanding of what the Bill is trying to do is to enable the Welsh Senedd to make a choice. If the amendments were to go through as drafted, they would deny that choice, because they would rule out people living in Wales from being able to choose whether they have assisted dying, whereas what I think the Bill is trying to do—I hope that can be clarified in the response—is state that the legislation will enable the Welsh Senedd to decide whether and how it wants to implement the Bill. When the Senedd does that, it can take into account the points that the noble Lord, Lord Harper, made about how the two services could sit alongside each other.

If we were to pass this Amendment, we would deny the people of Wales that choice. That cuts right across the principles that the noble Lord, Lord Weir, set out when he said that the decision should be taken in Wales. The amendment would mean that the decision was taken here, which would deny the people of Wales that choice.

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, for introducing this debate and raising very important questions about devolution, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. I will first address the amendments specifically and then respond to some of the comments raised in the debate.

These amendments, along with a number of others in future groups, would remove Wales from the Bill. Ultimately, I am concerned that this steals the ability of the people of Wales to exercise their choice over how they spend the end of their lives. As was mentioned by the previous Speaker, that could create a two-tier system, where people in England can decide while people in Wales are not granted that choice. By removing Wales from the Bill, we leave people in Wales in limbo. That is not the case for Scotland, because Scotland would be able to decide for itself.

It would be irresponsible of us neither to include Wales as part of this legislation nor to allow the Senedd to have the powers to legislate on this important matter. While criminal law remains reserved, health is not. If this Bill shall pass, it will have serious consequences for a completely devolved matter in Wales. This is the situation in which we find ourselves. To address this matter, I have tabled amendments that will be debated in a future group that could resolve this very issue.

As I urged at Second Reading, we must reflect carefully not only on the moral weight of the question before us but on the constitutional responsibility we bear. We must respect and protect the role of devolved Parliaments in matters that are clearly within their responsibility. As noble Lords have mentioned, in a future debate we will discuss giving the Senedd the complete right to legislate in this area. We must not deny people an important choice just because of their postcode.

I turn to some of the comments already raised in the debate, to add further questions for the Minister to address at the end. In light of the LCMs in the Senedd, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee laid a report just after Second Reading in this House. The report notes that an LCM is not attached to some areas of the Bill, and the Welsh Government have not given a reason for that to the Senedd; they have just noted that it would “waive legal professional privilege”. Therefore, Senedd Members are concerned as to why an LCM cannot be attached to some areas of the Bill. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to that today.

On some of the comments raised about the vote in the Senedd, I remind this House that there is a Senedd election next year. Therefore, it is most likely that the Welsh Government who would implement the Bill, if passed, would be new. We already know that at least 56% of the Members of the Senedd after May will be brand new—that is an important point for this House to consider. We should not take the previous vote as the say of the Senedd; instead, we should ensure that the Senedd has a proper say and can legislate for the people of Wales on the NHS in Wales.

My Lords, I shall be brief. I oppose the Amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Markham, said, this is a decision for the people of Wales to make—not for the people of England, who dominate this Parliament, both in the other place and here.

The problem arises because of the complexity of the devolution arrangements for Wales, and we could spend quite a lot of time—which I am sure no one wants to spend—going through it to try to understand why it has happened. In essence, it has arisen because the enabling of the Senedd to do anything is determined by criminal law; that is how the legislation has been drafted. That is not the case in Scotland: they have the freedom. That is denied to Wales because of the way that the devolution arrangements work. It cannot be right and fair for this position to remain. The noble Lord, Lord Markham, put his finger on what the solution ought to be.

We cannot adopt what has been suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey. If we did so, the Senedd would have no power to do anything because of those constitutional arrangements. Therefore, the solution that has been put forward, to delete Wales from the Bill, is a non-starter; we have to do something.

This is particularly important because, as has been said, although this is partly a great moral issue and partly an issue about the NHS, it is only in incidental effects a criminal law issue. The settlement makes it a criminal law issue, but we ought to allow the moral issue and the issue in relation to the NHS to be determined in Wales. If the Bill were to be passed in its current form, and then the Welsh Government decided that they did not want to implement it, the only people who would be able to obtain assisted dying in Wales would be those who were prepared to pay for it. That cannot conceivably be right.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, and I have put down an amendment to try and resolve this. We have had it degrouped. I do not think any noble Lords have had much experience of reading the Government of Wales Act. The only experience noble Lords ought to have of doing that is if one suffers from insomnia.

In the coming period, we ought to settle down with the sponsors of the Bill and with the Government to try and work out a just solution to this problem; otherwise, I regret to say, the debate on the Floor of the House on the way in which we solve these problems will be time-consuming. It is not really the best way of dealing with such an important issue, which can be solved technically. I am sure everyone would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Markham, that it is a decision for the people of Wales and not for the people of England, who dominate this legislature. Wales should not be regarded as inferior to Scotland.

My Lords, bearing in mind that this is a Private Member’s Bill, it seems to me, as an Englishwoman, that whatever efforts are required, we should be, at the end of the day, removing Wales from it.

My Lords, in my modest experience of six departments in both Houses of Parliament, I have always come to the conclusion and repeated that Whitehall does not do devolution. By the way, I declare an interest: I live in England but within 10 miles of the border of Wales. Therefore, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Harper, on raising this in a practical fashion that probably nobody else in the House is able to do. I doubt that Members of Parliament in the other place had the opportunity to raise it in detail, because there will be MPs running on both sides of the border. I commend him on raising it, and I resent the fact that he was interrupted at the end.

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, in raising this question. Whether or not the suggestion from the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, is the right way of addressing this issue is genuinely a moot point. But she is absolutely right to raise the whole question of the fitness for purpose of the Bill, given the nature of our devolution settlement.

I speak with a modicum of experience. For just over four years, I was the Conservative Government’s Minister for Intergovernmental Relations, responsible for seeking to make the devolution settlement work at a time when we obviously had a party of one colour in government in Westminster and parties of very different complexions in Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh. Prior to that, as Secretary of State for Justice, Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I had to navigate the thickets of our devolution settlement.

It requires care to make it work. In order to do so, we have to take account of conventions, of legislative competences, of precedents and, as my noble friend Lord Harper pointed out, of the interwoven nature of the lives of communities that live on our borders. It is absolutely right that we should do so, both as a revising Chamber and as a revising Chamber considering legislation of such moment.

As everyone has pointed out during the passage of the Bill, strong feelings are engaged on every side. If we are thinking about fundamentally changing the responsibility of the state and our NHS when it comes to the balance between alleviating pain, prolonging life and, in certain circumstances, ending life, then we must proceed with care.

It was the explicit wish of many in the House of Commons, including in Committee, that the Bill takes seriously the operation of the legislation—so it is not finicky, an abdication of responsibility or something to be criticised when raising these specific and precise questions. It is our role.

Of course, many of us recognise, whatever our feelings on the Bill, that the House of Commons clearly gave its express wish that those who are living with a condition that means that their life will soon end in any circumstances should be able to choose the timing and manner of their death. I respect that clearly expressed wish. Some of us may take a different view about that imperative sent to us from the House of Commons as a matter of first principle, but all of us have a responsibility to look at how the legislation operates, because we are not in the business of simply recognising and respecting a sentiment, no matter how sincere; we are in the business of introducing legislation that must work and be made to work. Therefore, it is our responsibility in the days ahead to look in detail.

That is why I make no apology for specifically referring to the operation of the Sewel convention. Introduced by Lord Sewel of Gilcomstoun, a fellow Aberdonian and a former Labour Minister, it is a convention that broadly governs how we and the Government should legislate with respect to devolved matters. The Sewel convention makes clear that the Government should not normally legislate in areas that are strictly devolved without the full consent of the devolved legislative chambers—the Senedd Cymru, the Holyrood Scottish Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Because it is a convention, of course it is the right of Westminster—Westminster is ultimately sovereign—to legislate without that consent. But the broad convention, on which the success of our devolution sentiment rests, is that that should be exercised only sparingly. This point was made very well and repeatedly by the promoter of the Bill in this House himself, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. On a variety of occasions in the past, when the Government of which I was part sought to legislate in a way that may have caused disquiet or Opposition in devolved legislatures, he has pointed out the importance of the Sewel convention, and he is not alone in doing so.

The former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, in a report commissioned by the current Prime Minister in the other place on the operation of the Sewel convention, recommended that the Sewel convention be made justiciable and that it should be the case that it should move from a constitutional convention to be a legislative part of our constitution. The Government have not yet taken that step, but it is the stated intention and policy of the Government to ensure that, if one did choose to legislate without the consent of a devolved legislature, that would be capable of challenge in the courts, which it is not yet.

In stressing the importance of making sure that we proceed with care, I am doing no more than expressing not just my experience of how important it is to respect the devolved sentiment but my acknowledgement of the direction of travel that the Government had set out with their belief in making the devolved settlement work better.

The point has been made that our devolved settlement with regard to Wales is complex, and indeed it is, as a number of noble Lords have pointed out. Crime and justice are not devolved, but health is. But again, even in the area of crime and justice, there is no settled will.

I participated in the convention looking at the future of the constitution with regard to Welsh devolution, led by the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Williams of Oystermouth—Rowan Williams. In it, he made the case—I believe it is a case that exercises the sympathy of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd—

My understanding is that the Senedd is undertaking its usual processes around legislative consent, with reports from the health committee and the justice committee to be published soon. A date for agreeing legislative consent has not been set, but it is likely to be either shortly before or immediately after Christmas. It normally would take place before Report, so that amendments can be drafted in line with the feelings of the Senedd at the time. I wonder whether we need to look forward rather than historically.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for making that point, because it takes me to two of the points that I was about to make about the two committees in the Senedd that have looked at this: the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Health and Social Care Committee. Both have explicitly raised concerns about this legislation.

The point that I was making about criminal justice is that, if there is a broad view among what one might call progressive parties in Wales—and certainly those parties that are likely to form a Majority after the next Senedd election—it is that crime and justice should be devolved. That is not the case at the moment. It should not govern how we legislate in this House. But if we have to have regard to sentiment and to making the devolution settlement work, as I believe we should, we should be aware that legislating without the consent of the Senedd in areas such as crime and justice is certainly putting an additional strain on the devolution settlement. Let me put it no more highly than that.

The noble Baroness’s Intervention gives me an opportunity to turn to both of those committees. Both have expressed specific concern that some of the powers that the Government seek to exercise have not been justified, and on the evidence that has been provided by the Welsh Government themselves to the Senedd, the exercise of those powers has not been justified. The Welsh Government have said—entirely understandably, as Executives do—that they do not wish to share some of the legal advice that they have received with these committees, because, quite rightly, it is the right of the Executive to have legal advice offered in private and for it to remain confidential. But those committees are in a position where they say that for their purposes—for the purposes of due and appropriate deliberation—they have not been provided the information necessary to justify support for this legislation.

More than that, some of these questions were addressed in Committee in the other place, and an Amendment was made to this legislation, specifically restricting the exercise of some of the powers in this legislation unless and until agreement had been given by the Welsh Government and Senedd Cymru. That amendment, which won by one vote in Committee and which secured the support of the leader of Plaid Cymru in the other place, was gutted subsequently by the promoter of the Bill, the Member for Batley and Spen. Again, we may well take the view that Kim Leadbeater was correct in seeking to overturn what the Committee had done, but what we cannot ignore is that two committees in the Senedd and the parliamentary Committee which was scrutinising this Bill in the other place all said that the legislation as currently put forward with respect to Wales was unsatisfactory.

These are not simply theoretical and abstract constitutional questions; they go to the heart of the effective delivery of the Bill. I know that the devolved settlement with respect to the NHS in Wales is not simply an administrative or theological distinction; it matters. During the Covid pandemic, when I was a Cabinet Office Minister, I was talking weekly, sometimes daily, to the Welsh First Minister, Mark Drakeford, about the way in which Wales, entirely legitimately, would choose to take a divergent path when it came to non-pharmaceutical interventions in order to deal with Covid-19. Co-ordinating those was a matter for all of us, but it was the right of the Welsh Government, and in tune and in sympathy with the Welsh people, that Mark Drakeford would put forward a very different approach from that which prevailed in other parts of the United Kingdom. It has been clear, and the point has been made by Members of the Senedd, that if this legislation comes forward, the impact on resourcing for NHS Wales, and in particular the impact on the provision of palliative care, will be adverse.

More than that—I note at this point that I am taking account of the intervention that was made earlier; it is critical that we bear in mind these two other points—the point has been made by Welsh committee members that the provision of these services would place a strain on mental health provision and, in particular, mental health provision for those who are Welsh-speaking. The indigenous languages of this United Kingdom are a cause dear to my heart, and in government I did everything possible to support Gaelic and Welsh. Some might say that this is a recondite concern; I see it as going to the heart of respecting difference, devolution and the strength of our United Kingdom. The fact that some in this Chamber might not consider it important—I hope no one would express that view, but some might—only reinforces the vital importance of us considering how the devolution settlement works.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, I am not yet convinced that the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, is the right way to address this gap, but gap there is. Unless the Government come forward with a clear proposal that addresses the concerns expressed by the First Minister of Wales, the Senedd, both the Senedd Select Committees, the leader of Plaid Cymru and in Committee in the other place, we risk doing real damage to the devolution settlement and to confidence in the capacity of Westminster to legislate in this area, and doing real injustice to those in Wales, who deserve better palliative care and better mental health care than would be the case if this legislation were to pass as it stands.

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said that some people were suffering from insomnia. I think this House is suffering from collective amnesia. All of a sudden there is a great hurrah about the Sewel convention and respecting devolution. I gently remind this House that it had no hesitation whatever in legislating over the heads of the Northern Ireland Assembly against the expressed wishes of that Assembly on abortion, for instance, and on other matters. So, if we have suddenly decided that we are going to respect these settlements, it is a Damascene conversion, and I hope that it is perfectly obvious that there are huge holes in where this legislation is taking us, as has just been ably pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Gove. Like him, I leave it open as to whether this is the right Amendment, but I just gently remind everybody that we in this House are not scoring very high on consistency.

I will be brief—everybody will be delighted to hear that. I should say that I am a supporter of the intentions of the Bill, and I agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said, particularly when he suggested that the Government will need to be involved in sorting out some of these problems.

What concerns me is that we are now going to try to improve a Bill, which is demonstrably flawed, with 900 amendments—many of which seem to make sense to me—on the Floor of the House between now and Christmas. Surely the Government should now be listening, and grasping that they need to take the Bill in themselves. They need to consult nationally and widely, to try to find as much consensus as possible, and then in a considered way they need to come back to the House. To attempt to deal with these 900 amendments in this way will end up with the Bill being talked out, with us being in a place we do not want to be—at least those of us who want to see progress on the Bill—and we will end up in a worse place than we would have been had the Government done the sensible thing at the beginning and taken the Bill in, as they did with Private Members’ Bills such as the Suicide Act.

My Lords, I shall be even more brief than the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, but I put on record that I am quite in favour of Damascene conversions on this occasion. This last hour and a half have shown us that this is irrespective of the aims of the Bill. The way the Bill is written has so many flaws that I do not think that, however long we debate it, this House will be able to get it to a stage where it is legislatively fit to be passed, and that is our role: we should not vote for anything that cannot legislatively be properly implemented.

My Lords, I am in favour of the amendments from my noble friend Lady Coffey. This has been a fascinating debate about the issues that we have with the devolution settlements across our United Kingdom. It is not only about the issues across the English-Welsh border, which have been so ably demonstrated and described by my noble friend Lord Harper, who has experience in this matter from the other place, but we have other strange dynamics going on in this country on the English border over into Scotland, where things are very different. There are other differences between England and Northern Ireland. We are not proposing to usurp the settlement with Scotland or to usurp the settlement with Northern Ireland.

I am quite interested to hear, at the appropriate time, whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will declare whether he is no longer quite so keen on the old devolution settlements that I can but assume he was part of during the Government that he served in, in that it is not quite as convenient now in this Bill to do the things required by those devolution settlements.

I was interested to hear the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Weir, because the Northern Ireland arrangement has a further dynamic, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, where there is, again, a swapping over and a commonality of health provision, and it is quite commonplace that people come and go.

The matter of abortion was also raised. That has had a different dynamic across our United Kingdom over many years. My voting record in the House of Commons will show that I took no part in the rather heated debate on abortion that happened some years ago. I abstained because I appreciated that the devolution settlement was a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly to come to its own conclusions on.

We have to ask ourselves what this Bill is. Is it a criminal justice Bill? We have 42 Henry VIII powers, exercisable by Ministers, so the Bill before us is not actually the Bill that will affect people’s lives; that will be written later because this Bill has so many of those Henry VIII powers in it. Many of those powers, as I described at Second Reading, should not really be there. We should not be having Henry VIII powers to create criminal matters under statutory instruments and Delegated legislation; that is just not the way we do things.

So is this a criminal justice Bill? I do not think it is, because it has now morphed very much into a health Bill. It seeks to amend the NHS Act. I think it is the intent of many of the Bill’s supporters that it is the NHS that does these things: advise, provide the medical staff and do the deed. I do not know which chemical might be used. It may be barbiturates in England; it might be heaven knows what in Scotland. These are serious matters.

Is this a medical Bill? I believe that it is. Because it has morphed increasingly into a medical Bill, whether or not we agree with the devolution settlements, we have to respect them. As my noble friend Lord Harper highlighted very clearly, this is the danger of a Private Member’s Bill that is so interwoven with and entrenched in the complications of a devolution settlement. Whether you are for or against this Bill, or whatever, these are complex matters. These are matters of a different potential life or death, depending on which border you are close to in this United Kingdom. This is a matter of health in Wales.

Looking back to Covid, I know that it is a period we all rather like to forget, unpleasant as it was. At that time, I and my noble friend Lord Harper—I am sorry to keep mentioning him—were somewhat active in the space. Do noble Lords remember? These were matters of life and death; I mean, Covid was deemed to be. I was not quite so keen on the measures and voted against them all, but they were deemed to be measures of life and death; that is why they were so draconian.

I remember very clearly that I came up with what I called the Wilkinson conundrum. It is not a good conundrum now, because Wilkinson has subsequently gone into liquidation, but I made the point that because Wilkinson sold everything—fresh fruit and vegetables, tins of beans, and pots and pans—it was allowed to open. The lunacy was that the independent trader next door who sold only pots and pans was not allowed to open. We did that for whatever reason—it was deemed to be a matter of life and death—but Wales did something entirely different. In Wales, Wilkinson had to hide the pots and pans; one could buy beans and everything else, but a cover had to be put over the pots and pans. In matters of life and death, we allowed Wales to have its way.

This is most seriously a matter of life and death. We have a devolution settlement, and it has to be respected.

My Lords, I declare my interests in this debate: I chair Sport Wales, which is an arm’s-length body of the Welsh Government; I am the president of the LGA; and I am a director of Living and Dying Well. I also spoke recently at a fundraiser event for a hospice in Wales.

A fundamental part of why we are here is to debate legislation, including looking at how this Bill might impact various parts of the UK—most specifically, England and Wales. I am concerned that we could end up with vastly different systems in England and Wales. Generally, there is a lack of understanding on devolution. In sport, I seem to spend quite a lot of time in meetings asking, “What about devolution?”, and we have to be careful about what we do in Westminster and what should be a matter for Wales when the health service is devolved.

The equality impact assessment lacks information on how the Bill could work in practice. I understand that lots of meetings and discussions with the Civil Service are going on, but we have to be really mindful about how this aligns with the responsibilities of the Senedd to set policy funding and to manage the NHS in Wales. That includes the organisation of it and the funding of health services, with the power residing with Welsh Ministers who work through local health boards and NHS trusts.

I want to follow up on the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Harper, who talked about what happens in cross-border situations. I experienced that in real life. I lived in England—I still do—but I worked full-time in Cardiff. I lived at my parents’ home, which was sometimes quite challenging for me in my late 20s, but my GP was based in Wales because that was where I spent most of my time; it was also where some of my hospital appointments were. For some of the treatment that I was having at the time, at the University Hospital of Wales, it was really important that I had access to that kind of specialist support.

Because my GP was in Wales, my baby was born in Wales, even though I lived in England. There are a number of cases like this, and we have to be very mindful of them. I have tabled amendments on pregnancy, which we will discuss when we come on to later groups, but we have to tread really carefully. This is where I firmly put my Welsh hat on, even though, normally, I would probably say I am British. We have to be very careful about what Westminster decides is or is not a Welsh matter. We could damage relationships by being seen to tread on the toes of what is happening in Wales.

We also have to be mindful of what is happening in Wales and the rest of the UK. In Wales, the increase in the NHS budget for 2025-26 is about £600 million; there is also extra funding for health and social care, which is part of a larger uplift of £1.6 billion for public services. But there are many challenges in the health service in Wales at the moment. Also, look at the funding for local councils: there is a big gap. These pressures are driven by inflation and increased demand for services such as social care and schools.

We have to understand how this Bill is going to work in reality. I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, that we do not know what the next Senedd is going to look like. We might have some very sensible negotiations or we might be starting completely from scratch, but we have to be really careful not to step on the toes of the Senedd and its Members.

There are some questions whose answers I would find very helpful; I thank the noble Lord, Lord Gove, for asking some of them. What is the cost for Wales going to be? What impact is the Bill going to have on other services? Will the health service in Wales have to cut services? That applies to England as well, if this service goes ahead. What will be the impact on palliative care? We will pick up that issue in our debates on later amendments but, picking up on what the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, said, we need to understand what conversations have been had between the Welsh Government and their officials, the supporters of this Bill and His Majesty’s Government.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for inviting me to a meeting on 3 September; I found it invaluable to meet doctors from Australia. In that meeting, the noble and learned Lord said that there had been significant support. I am interested in whether it is possible to expand on that. We need to understand how many civil servants are currently working on this. Who is running the Bill team? Is it the Ministry of Justice? That would lead us into different discussions. Is it the Department of Health? Last week I met someone who works in a government department. He told me that he is working full-time on the implementation of this Bill; I am not sure he meant to tell me that. Once this Bill passes, the question of how it works absolutely will be life and death.

I am very interested in that, because the response that I have had from the Minister is that nobody should be working on this beyond the Bill team, so nobody should be working on implementation. What the noble Baroness says is very interesting.

I thank the noble Baroness. At the Lady Mayor’s parade, a member of the public introduced himself and told me that this is what he was doing. We agreed to disagree on the outcome of the Bill. Slightly patronisingly, he followed this up by saying how wonderful he thought I was and to keep going.

I did not mean to make a point that was amusing to the Chamber, as this is far from amusing, but these are the details that we need to understand. Is there far more going on behind the scenes? Is the presumption that very few amendments will be accepted, as happened in Another place, or are the supporters of this Bill really open to making it better? I have tabled the second-highest number of amendments; my competitive edge fails in this example, as my noble friend Lady Finlay is about 30 amendments ahead of me. My amendments are to improve the Bill. Many are slight drafting changes, changes of words, which are to improve this Bill. That is our role. That is what we must remember. We have to improve this Bill. We have to make it workable.

Coming back to the point of this grouping, we have to make it work for England and Wales and we have to remember, as people who work in Westminster, that we have a responsibility to the people of Wales and should not step into areas that are not for us to step into.

My Lords, this is the first debate in Committee on this important Bill so I hope that the Committee will allow me to take a minute or two to set out the approach of the Official Opposition. As my noble friend Lord Kamall and I said at Second Reading, the Official Opposition have no collective view on this Bill. Although each Member of the Opposition front bench will have their own view on the Bill, we will support noble Lords across the House in their scrutiny of the Bill. We will also table a small number of additional amendments where we feel that parts of the Bill need probing further. We will not seek to delay the passage of the Bill, nor will we seek to hold up progress in Committee. Instead, we will seriously engage in detailed scrutiny of the Bill so that we can collectively deliver the best possible piece of legislation.

In that regard, I respectfully pay tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, for demonstrating his openness to improving the Bill already by tabling amendments that we hope to get to today and which reflect concerns that have been raised by noble Lords. I speak for all my colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench when I say that I look forward to working with him to ensure that we send a better Bill back to the other place.

The amendments in this group relate to the territorial extent of the Bill. My noble friend Lady Coffey is seeking to remove references to Wales in the Bill so that it would apply only to England. While I am not entirely persuaded that making this an England-only Bill is necessary per se, these amendments raise important questions about devolution. The core question for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, is why the Bill does not apply to the whole of the United Kingdom on the one hand or only to England on the other.

At the heart of this is, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, said—although various Acts of Parliament may put us to sleep, a speech by the noble and learned Lord never does; I was listening very carefully—that these amendments speak to the devolution settlement that we work with and the inconsistencies and confusions of that settlement. The noble and learned Lord used the word “complexity”. It is extremely complex. In this area, we have the problem that criminal law is not devolved to Wales whereas health is devolved. To pick up the point made by the noble and learned Lord, with which I respectfully agree, declaring the appropriate interest, Wales should not be regarded as inferior to Scotland. That is a point of general application.

The Scottish Parliament, as noble Lords know, is currently considering its own legislation on this topic. I hope that noble Lords have picked up that the Scottish Bill is significantly different in key ways—most markedly in the definition of terminal illness. In Scotland, it lacks the “six months to live” test which, whatever view we take, is at the heart of the Bill before us. The definition of terminal illness in the Scottish Bill is:

“For the purposes of this Act, a person is terminally ill if they have an advanced and progressive disease, illness or condition from which they are unable to recover and that can reasonably be expected to cause their premature death”.

I am not quite sure about “premature” in that context in all cases, but that is what the text says.

Leaving aside the point that those resident in one part of the United Kingdom will therefore have different rights to assistance under the law from those in another region of the United Kingdom should both Bills pass, I see the point that my noble friend Lady Coffey is making. If the people of Scotland may choose whether to have a law for terminally ill adults who wish to end their lives, why—I ask rhetorically, so to speak, looking forward to the response of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—should people in Wales not have the same choice? This is the key question that the noble and learned Lord has been presented with by this group of amendments.

My Lords, I welcome the opening comments of the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, which were helpful. I thank noble Lords for this debate.

I want to set out some points about the role of government Ministers. As noble Lords are well aware, the Government remain neutral on the principle of assisted dying and on the passage of this Bill. Whether the law in this area should change is absolutely and rightly a matter for Parliament. I and my noble friend Lady Levitt will speak in Committee as government Ministers responsible for ensuring that the Bill, if passed, is legally robust, effective and workable. To that end, I will not be providing a government view on the merits of proposed changes. Those are rightly a matter for noble Lords to decide. Throughout Committee, my remarks will focus only on amendments where the Government have significant workability concerns. I hope that this will be of assistance to noble Lords in their consideration of amendments. Where no comment is made, any workability concerns are less significant. The Government are unable to confirm at this stage that the current drafting of those amendments is fully workable, effective or enforceable.

Turning to the amendments in this group—

The Minister has said very carefully today and in answer to some Written Questions that there are officials, rightly, working on the legislative drafting of this Bill to make sure that it is workable. It is completely proper for Ministers and officials to be doing that. I want to probe the Minister on a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. Does she have officials, in her department or elsewhere, who have gone further than that and who are working on implementing the legislation if it were to pass both Houses of Parliament?

The noble Lord will be aware, as will your Lordships’ House generally, that Ministers have been absolutely consistent in setting out the right and proper role of officials, as is usual for a Private Member’s Bill. I will refer to that shortly. Also, if noble Lords have individual concerns, they are welcome to raise them with me.

The amendments in this group seek to restrict the eligibility criteria to apply to individuals in England only, rather than in England and Wales, as at present. These amendments would have minimal legal effect unless they are coupled with amendments to later clauses. Clause 1 is largely declaratory. This group of amendments would conflict with later operative provisions in the Bill unless consistent amendments are made to later provisions.

I will pick up a few of the points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, raised a number of points about engagement and I would be pleased to write to her further. I have done my very best to ensure that all the questions that she laid have been answered. I hope she will accept my apologies if that is not the case, but I have certainly endeavoured to do so. I will also review points made by other noble Lords in this debate, where they are relevant to the Government.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised a question regarding legislative consent Motions. As would be expected, UK government officials have discussed these matters with Welsh government officials, and the management of the legislative consent process in the Senedd is, of course, a matter for the Welsh Government.

In closing, I will make a few general comments about engagement.

On the LCM point, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in the Senedd has made a statement about it not having received enough information on the conversations between the UK and Welsh Governments about why certain clauses do not engage with the LCM process. Can the Minister respond directly to that point about why this information has not been shared with the Senedd?

I will certainly look into the matter that the noble Baroness raised and would be pleased to write to her. However, the first point I wanted to make here was about engagement with the Welsh Government. Of course, Ministers themselves have not met with the Welsh Government in relation to this Bill, as again would be expected, as it is not a government Bill. I know that the sponsors have met with the Welsh Government to discuss the policy intent and to negotiate which clauses require a legislative consent Motion.

The sponsors are also leading engagement with Scotland and Northern Ireland while—on the point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Harper, and others—UK government officials are providing technical support to support the sponsor and are engaging with Welsh government officials to discuss technical matters in relation to clauses that require a legislative consent Motion or those to which Wales has requested that further changes are made. Officials have regular meetings; they can be as frequent as weekly, as was the case at some points over the last few months.

The noble Baroness mentioned that the role of Ministers is to ensure that the Bill is legally robust, effective and workable, but surely safety has to play some part in that as well.

I am sure it would be expected that safety is absolutely paramount. The point I am making—and I look forward to hearing from my noble and learned friend—is that our position in government here is not to deal with matters of policy. As I have said, we are restricted to areas to which any Government would be restricted.

We will absolutely work with the Welsh Government, NHS England and the NHS in Wales to understand the impact of any changes to the law and the provision of healthcare services in Wales, during the coming stages of the Bill.

My Lords, I make a declaration of interest: I have an assistant who is funded by Mr Bernard Lewis and who helps me on this Bill. I make a declaration that Dignity in Dying paid for the printing of the material that was circulated to Peers in my name before this process commenced.

I compliment the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, on the short way that she introduced the important issue. I very much hope that I can put to rest most of the misconceptions that were expressed during this debate.

As everybody agrees, criminal law is not devolved to the Welsh Senedd. Therefore, any change in criminal law has to come from the UK Parliament. You cannot proceed with assisted dying without changing the criminal law. Therefore, the UK Parliament has to provide a legislative change for that.

Healthcare is rightly devolved to the Welsh Ministers and the Senedd. The Bill makes provision in England for Ministers to produce regulations on how assisted dying will be implemented and regulated in England. Clause 42 requires Ministers to produce such regulations. It is wrong, as part of the devolution settlement, to require Welsh Ministers who are responsible for health in Wales to do that. It is for the Welsh Government to decide what provision to make. Unlike Clause 41, which relates to England, Welsh Ministers are given the option to introduce such regulations as they see fit. Those regulations will permit the assisted dying process to be introduced in Wales, in the National Health Service, and for Welsh Ministers and the Welsh Government to provide whatever provision for it in regulations that they see fit.

The noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, asked why we are legislating for England and Wales but not Scotland at the same time. It is because we are doing exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Gove, asked me to do—and I am so glad he did—which is to respect the devolution settlement. Will the noble Lord let me finish? Then I will come back to him.

The way this structure works is that, first, we in this Parliament determine whether the criminal law should be changed. Secondly, the Welsh Government are given the power to introduce regulations. That power should normally be given to Welsh Ministers by an Act of the Senedd. Therefore, a legislative consent Motion has been proffered by the Welsh Government for the Senedd to decide whether it would be willing to give us consent to legislate in an area that would normally be legislated for in the Senedd.

The LCM—legislative consent Motion—in the Welsh Senedd covers the following. I give these details for noble Lords to consider them at their leisure: Clause 40, which gives Welsh Ministers power to issue guidance; Clause 42, which gives Welsh Ministers power to regulate how this is to be introduced in the health service in Wales and with what regulations; Clause 51, which gives the Welsh Government power to talk about and make regulations about the Welsh language; Clause 54, which gives them a general power to make regulations; and Clause 58, which gives the Welsh Ministers and the Welsh Government power to introduce certain of the provisions.

The sponsor in the other place and I have discussed this arrangement with the Welsh Government, and by that I mean Welsh Ministers and Welsh officials. We have done what the Welsh Government would wish us to do to respect devolution. We have taken these powers in the Bill, subject to Parliament, so that there is not a position where, after this Bill is passed, Welsh Ministers lack the power to introduce regulations if they choose to do so.

I have listened to this torrent of points about Wales saying it has not been thought out. I say with suitable humility that we have thought it out and sought to reflect what good devolution practice would require. I do not invite people to come back, but please think about what I have said and consider—

My Lords—

Hold on. Consider whether it represents the right position.

Can I just deal with two other points? First, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in a very clear speech, said maybe one should amend the Bill to give the Welsh Senedd the power to make a decision about the criminal law in relation to assisted dying. It was a point I thought the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, was sort of flirting with. We have not taken that view. We have taken the view that the right way to deal with this is in accordance with the existing devolution settlement.

If the noble Lord, Lord Gove, has not been satisfied with my answer so far, he may continue with his question.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for the clarity there. As a broad point, the devolution settlement encompasses not just inter-governmental relations but respect for devolved legislatures and their committees. With respect to that, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee of the Senedd has expressed concern that the Welsh Government have said that only a narrow number of clauses in the Bill should be subject to commencement by Welsh Ministers in the Senedd alone and has expressed concern about the lack of detail from the Welsh Government on these matters. I would be very interested in the noble and learned Lord’s views about the adequacy of both the Welsh Government and the UK Government’s sharing of information. More broadly, the committee also pointed out that there is dubiety at the very least about whether Clauses 42(1), 42(2), 51(2) and 51(3) of the Bill will be implemented only by regulation of Welsh Ministers or will be subject to automatic commencement through the automatic commencement backstop in due course.

In relation to the noble Lord’s first point, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s point about the width of the legislative consent Motion is that it wants the LCM to extend not just to the health provisions but also to those that relate to the change in the criminal law and the safeguards. It argues that those changes in the criminal law should also be subject to it. My view—and it is a view I think shared by the Welsh Government—is that, no, you do not need a legislative consent Motion for the UK Parliament to do that which it is entitled to do, which is to change the criminal law. I give way to the noble Lord, Lord Harper.

I am very grateful—

Sorry, the noble Lord, Lord Gove, asked a second question which I did not answer.

I am very grateful for that clarity, because it is clear that as a result of that, even though Westminster will be operating within its own legislative competence, it will be doing so in a way that violates the expressed wish of the committee. Again, as I pointed out in the previous section of this debate, it is also the expressed wish of many within Welsh Labour to see criminal justice devolved, but put that to one side.

The other key question was: can Welsh Ministers commence Clauses 42(1), 42(2), 51(2) and 51(3) of the Bill by their regulations only, or might the automatic commencement backstop apply in those cases?

It will depend on the decision made by the Welsh Ministers. I give way to the noble Lord, Lord Harper.

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. I have listened very carefully to what he said, and I absolutely accept that he has conducted extensive engagement with Welsh Ministers based, perfectly understandably, on the framework of the Bill as he and the sponsor in the Commons have drafted it.

The noble and learned Lord will know that one of the concerns of many in your Lordships’ House is the extent of Ministers’ powers and the extent to which some of the regulations should be put in the legislation. I am sure, as Committee progresses, we will have those debates. If it ends up being the wish of this Parliament that more of the detail about how the legislation will be implemented is put in primary legislation, how will we do that in a way that satisfies the desires perhaps of this Parliament but does not trespass, given the way he has chosen to set out the framework, over the devolution framework? Therefore, did he consider just devolving the power to the Welsh Senedd to change the criminal law in this narrow case? Then the Senedd, as the noble Baroness said, would have the full power to change the law and implement it. I accept that what he has done makes sense in the way he has drafted the Bill, but if we significantly change the Bill, I think that will cause a real problem with how it is implemented.

I am not sure I understood the question. As far as devolution is concerned, I do not think the question of regulations on the face of the Bill is the right issue. The right issue is who has power to produce those regulations and does that offend against the devolution settlement. If he has a question about there being not enough detail in relation to other areas, I am happy to answer that, but this is not for this group. Those are my submissions.

Let me ask him the question.

Noble Lords:

No!

Noble Lords:

Yes!

He said he did not really understand my question. If we set out in the Bill some of the details he currently envisages are in regulations and therefore the House decides on them as opposed to them being for Ministers in either the UK Government or the Welsh Government, that will cause a problem for the approach to devolution that he has conducted. I just wondered whether he had thought about that. That was my question, and I am sorry for not expressing it clearly.

I am not sure the noble Lord has quite understood what I have said. It is for the regulations in so far as they deal with the Welsh health service to be delivered by Welsh Ministers, so it is quite inappropriate for us to put them in this Bill.

My Lords, I was brief at the start because I wanted to give the Minister the chance to be transparent for the benefit of this House. I am sorry to say that I hope that the letter will give that, but I am concerned that it will not. The reason I say that has been well explained in the discussions in the Welsh Senedd. In the supplementary to the latest legislative consent memorandum, it says:

“The UKG has not confirmed their position as to whether they believe the consent of the Senedd is required for this Bill as amended at the House of Commons Report stage but have acknowledged that some clauses do”.

When will the Government share with this House what they think is devolved and what is reserved? Why are they reluctant to do so? This is what I am struggling to understand. I have been asked outside this Chamber why am I bothered about Wales. I care about Wales anyway. It may not be widely known, but I went to school in Wales, I have family in Wales and both my parents are buried in Wales. But I would say that I am also here as a legislator.

Having been an MP, a Minister and a Cabinet Minister, I am used to being taken to court on details of legislation, and to the back and forth with devolved Administrations. I am not doing this simply to try to be awkward; we are trying to define the legislation. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in the Welsh Senedd believes that Clause 1 should be devolved. To give another example, people might be aware of the issue of smacking. Basically, Wales was able to use its child welfare powers and then made a request. We will come on to this later in the debate about amending the Government of Wales Act, I think. If we recognise that the only context under this Bill in which there can be help with assisted death—assisted suicide—has to be healthcare settings then surely there is something there about the Welsh Senedd having the opportunity, through later amendments, to make that determination in the first place.

I mention that now because my noble friend Lord Markham and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said we should be deciding the principle of whether this Bill should be seen in that regard. Actually, recognising the whole, I am strongly of the view that this should be taken out of this Bill through an Amendment to the Government of Wales Act. That is to some extent why I put tabled this. Will the Minister confirm the Government’s position on Clause 1? I would be very happy to have an answer from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, on whether he believes that. The Welsh Parliament certainly does.

Further, will the Minister put in the Library the minutes of the meetings so we can understand what is happening between the two Governments about the practicality and legality of this aspect of the Bill? I know that Ministers will, understandably, often say that it is all legally privileged. Those of us who have been in government know that you tend to get small aspects of legal privilege and lots of policy content in regarding and summarising, which is not legally privileged. That is where I hope that we can get this transparency from the Minister and, if necessary, the sponsor—I do not quite understand this; it is one of the most complicated Private Members’ Bills I have ever seen—and, actually, just an answer to whether Clause 1 is reserved or not.

Does the noble Baroness intend to withdraw the Amendment?

I was hoping to get an answer; we can speak more than once in Committee, because we are trying to understand. Otherwise, later days in Committee and Report could become quite painful. I hope to get an answer from the Minister today.

I have been absolutely clear that, in so far as Clause 1 affects a change to the criminal law, it is reserved. In so far as implementation of it by the health service is concerned, that is a matter for the Welsh Government, not the Bill. If there is any lack of clarity in that answer, let me know.

I would be grateful if any advice that has been given to the noble and learned Lord by officials is shared with the Committee. It is helpful, when determining legislation, to understand that, and it would be especially helpful if the Government, who have said they are getting involved only on legality and practicality, were to express their view. They will not even tell the Welsh Government what their view is, and that is very concerning.

My Lords, I just emphasise my previous comments. I think it would be extremely helpful for this debate if I were to write to the noble Baroness setting it all out as she requires, following my previous Answers to Written Questions that have been laid.

I hope that the department will take a better attitude in determining things such as freedom of information requests. We have already had from the Cabinet Office whether it is now in the public interest to declare information that it holds. I hope the Government—I can see that the Deputy Chief Whip is on the front bench—will take this away, because it is a serious matter. This is one of the most important Bills that we will consider in this Parliament, and it is important that we have transparency and a full understanding that is shared across the Chamber. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.