The Earl of Caithness:

Moved by The Earl of Caithness

321: Clause 77, page 109, line 10, after “unless” insert “21 days”Member's explanatory statementThis Amendment, and another in the name of Lord Cameron of Dillington to clause 77, seeks to ensure that both statutory undertakers and private individual land managers are given equal treatment as regards the powers of entry to be exercised by Natural England.

My Lords, we now turn to the very important question of the powers to enter for Britain’s new Rostekhnadzor, the dominant state operator. I find it rather terrifying that a Bill can be put before your Lordships’ House by people who seem to be so out of touch with the real world. In Clause 77(3), a statutory undertaker—most likely in this case to be Natural England—gets 21 days’ notice, whereas in any other case the notice is 24 hours.

I understand that Natural England does not visit its trees very often, if at all. They probably do not need much management once they get going. Perhaps there is a bit of thinning to do or a felling exercise, but the people can go home at a set time to their families. Natural England will get 21 days’ notice for the benefit of that position.

On the other hand, the farmer will be working on their farm outside probably from 6 am to 9 pm. Then they come home, start to do their emails and suddenly find that they have Natural England coming the next day and that there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. Why is there this prejudice against non-statutory undertakers? Why are they given such a short time?

While on this part of the Bill, can I ask the Minister some more questions? Clause 77(2) states that the powers

“may not be exercised in relation to a private dwelling” and quite right too, but are they exercisable in regard to a garden? That is a concern.

In Clause 77(4), why is notice not required for a second or subsequent visit? Surely that would only be courteous if they are going on to somebody else’s land. If it is a farmer’s land, they might be combining, they might be sowing or they might be getting sheep or cattle in for inoculation. They probably have a very full programme. Somebody appointed by Natural England then suddenly turns up. Would the Minister like it if that happened at home in Cumbria? She is about to catch the train down to your Lordships’ House and Natural England says, “No, you can’t do that, Minister. I need to speak to you now. Let us go and have a look at this”. This could be redrafted to be a lot better for the private individual.

The final point I put to the Minister is the question of notice in writing. When I was a surveyor, a letter in writing was all you could do. Can she tell me whether writing includes emails and social media? It comes through in written form on one’s dreaded machines. Will it be a signed letter like the one she sent us this morning, or can it be done a different way? I have asked lots of questions and it would be very helpful to have some answers. I beg to move.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, for their excellent amendments—excellent because I was a co-signatory. These amendments seek to ensure consistency in treatment between statutory undertakers and private individual land managers as regards the powers of entry to be exercised by Natural England.

Frankly, this was an unwelcome addition to the Bill in the other place, giving Natural England even greater powers than already envisaged. I have referred before, or my noble friend has, to Natural England being turned into an authoritarian empire. This is part of what I was referring to. These amendments would require that at least 21 days’ notice be given to both sets of parties by Natural England to enter and survey or investigate any land covered by this part of the Bill. This appears to be the least amount of respect that private landowners should be entitled to. There are major issues around biosecurity—the risk that entrants to land carry on animal disease or predatory species. Given Natural England’s activities across the country, there is a considerable and real risk involved in their entry.

Farms may also have livestock that pose some risk to visitors and need to be kept away from roads and public rights of way, but for the behaviour of which they remain liable. Giving the additional time would allow landowners and Natural England to consider the risks around the entry and sensible precautions that can be taken and warnings given.

We in the Conservative Party have always strongly believed in both equal treatment before the law and the importance of public and private land ownership. These are principles we will always continue to support and are rights that we believe all should have access to. I therefore welcome Amendments 321 and 322, and I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss them in further detail.

I hope that those who drafted this law did not take the view—we have no evidence that they did—that, “The public sector is good and can be trusted but private ownership is bad and cannot be trusted, so let us go in and speak to them straightaway”. As an aside, I say to my noble friend Lord Caithness that if inspectors arrived at the farm of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, and wanted to see it immediately, if it meant she could no longer travel on a ghastly Avanti train with me I can understand why she would happily ask them to come in straightaway.

However, I trust that the Government will take these amendments seriously and I agree with the underlying principles. I await the Government’s response to them with anticipation.

My Lords, I do not want to disturb the travelling arrangements of noble Lords who live in Cumbria. Amendments 321 and 322, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and ably moved by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, would extend the written notice period required before Natural England could demand admission to land. This is currently set at 21 days for statutory undertakers and at least 24 hours in other cases.

Although we agree it is important that adequate notice is provided, the provisions in the Bill are consistent with powers of entry in similar legislation. In aligning with other legislation, we are reducing the risk of confusion for landowners but also recognising the justified difference in treatment regarding statutory undertakers, such as utility companies, whose activities may be vital for public services and so may require additional preparation to protect public safety and to prevent disruption.

However, noble Lords have made some very good points and we will consider this further. It is also worth highlighting the additional safeguards in the Bill, such as ensuring that these powers cannot be used to gain access to private residences—I believe it says “residences” not “dwellings”, so I hope that covers the point about gardens that the noble Earl made. These safeguards further ensure that the powers cannot be used in any other manner other than for carrying out functions under this part of the Bill.

The noble Earl made a very good point about a second or subsequent visit. We do need to consider that further. He also raised the point about notice in writing. He is right to point to the fact that this could be an actual letter—a physical letter—or it could be an email; it could probably not be social media, because that would not be an appropriate way of communicating directly with the person concerned.

With that, and a commitment to discuss this further, I hope that, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, will agree to withdraw the Amendment.

My Lords, I think that is the most positive reply we have had from the Government in 48, 58, 68 hours. I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that. I feel she understands the point that my noble friend Lord Blencathra and I are after: fairness. I was involved as a surveyor in giving notices to people, and there are circumstances when 24 hours is required, but this is not emergency legislation. There should be no need for Natural England, if it is doing its job properly, not to be able to give a decent length of notice and treat people in a civilised manner. I am very grateful to her and look forward to hearing from her shortly. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment 321 withdrawn.

Amendment 322 not moved.

Clause 77 agreed.

Clauses 78 to 81 agreed.

Clause 82: Revoked EDP: powers of Secretary of State etc to enter and survey or investigate land