Baroness Kramer:

Moved by Baroness Kramer

98: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause—“Non-disclosure agreements: harassment(1) The Secretary of State must, within six months of the day on which this Act is passed, make changes by regulations made by statutory instrument to ensure that an agreement to which this section applies is void, or may not be entered into, insofar as it purports to preclude the worker from making a relevant disclosure.(2) This section applies to any agreement between a worker and the worker’s employer (whether a worker’s contract or not), including—(a) any proceedings for breach of contract,(b) a non-disclosure agreement, or(c) a non-disparagement agreement.(3) Regulations made under this section must―(a) not prevent a worker from being granted confidentiality protections associated with a settlement agreement, but only if those protections are made at the worker’s request and not the employer’s;(b) replicate the protections offered to workers by section 1 of the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act 2023, with respect to non-disclosure agreements and harassment, but must apply those protections to all workers;(c) ensure a worker can access independent legal advice, including on alternative forms of confidentiality agreements;(d) ensure any confidentiality agreement can only be of a limited duration;(e) require any agreement to be in plain English;(f) not permit a confidentiality agreement to be made in a situation that would —(i) give rise to any risk of harassment to a third party in the future, or(ii) pose any danger to public interest. (4) For the purposes of this section—“harassment” means any act of harassment as defined by section 26 of the Equality Act 2010;“relevant disclosure” means any disclosure of information which, in the reasonable belief of the worker making the disclosure, shows that harassment has been committed, is being committed or is likely to be committed, by a fellow worker or a client of the employer.(5) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”Member's explanatory statementThis new clause would require the Secretary of State to make regulations to void any non-disclosure agreement insofar as it prevents the worker from making a disclosure about harassment (including sexual harassment), with relevant exceptions at the worker’s request.

My Lords, I am privileged to speak first on this group of amendments, which is an opportunity I enjoy just by the luck of the numbering. I acknowledge the intense campaigning done by others in this House over many years—many of them will be speaking later in this group of amendments. I also express the apologies of the noble Lord, Lord Wills, who had intended to speak on a number of amendments that are in his name in this group. He has been called away by caring duties which he could not avoid. I am afraid that I will be taking a little more time than usual to speak, because I am attempting, as it were, to channel his comments on the amendments that sit with him as the lead name.

This group focuses on a series of amendments on speaking out. I will start with Amendment 98, which is not just in my name but in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Goudie and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, who have both worked tirelessly on these issues. A similar amendment was supported widely in the Commons. It focuses on preventing the use of non-disclosure agreements, known in the UK as confidentiality agreements, to silence people subject to or speaking out on harassment as defined under the Equality Act. However, it does allow confidentiality agreements where the person speaking out wishes to protect their anonymity, and that is important.

The amendment requires that the regulations replicate the protections under Section 1 of the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act 2023. In other words, it is a protection that currently exists for a limited few, and we know that it works in law. A driving force behind this amendment has been Zelda Perkins, who, with extraordinary courage in 1998, exposed Harvey Weinstein. She is the co-founder of Can’t Buy My Silence, and that organisation’s petition for action on NDAs has over 70,000 signatures.

If the Minister says we cannot consider such an amendment without a consultation process, I will remind her that there have been numerous consultations by BEIS and the EHRC; it has even been addressed by the Treasury Committee. Ireland and 27 US states already have such legislation. If she looks at the many examples of the use of NDAs to silence abused women that were cited in that Commons debate on this Bill, she will realise that the need for action is urgent.

Amendment 101 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and Amendment 101C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, cover similar territory with some differences, and I am sure they will speak to them. Amendment 101A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morrissey, includes a Clause providing for some degree of legal aid, recognising that legal costs are a major obstacle for harassment victims. I have added my name to all those amendments, but what we really want is for the Government to bring forward an effective amendment. I will say to the Government that I predict that this Bill will not leave this House without a substantive version of these various amendments in place.

Amendment 281, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Chakrabarti and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, would effectively ban NDAs that cover up illegal conduct. It highlights a very real issue. People accept financial assessments with NDAs attached because their lives have been destroyed by retaliation for daring to speak out. The NDA itself basically says that, if they speak out again, they must repay the settlement with interest added. The NDA does not provide an exemption for speaking to a regulator or investigator, and nor is there any protection or exemption in statute. The only protection that tells a woman or man who speaks out that they can speak freely to a regulator despite having signed an NDA is in case law. Remember: many of the people who have spoken out are very vulnerable. They find that case law feels weak, they do not trust it and they remain silent. That is a situation that we must end.

I will move on to Amendments 125, 126 and 147 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wills. They look much more broadly at the issues of whistleblowing and seek to change some of the most egregiously inadequate features of the existing Public Interest Disclosure Act—I have added my name. The last Government initiated a review of the whistleblowing framework covering many of these issues, but it has never been published. I ask the Minister: will she publish it now?

PIDA—that is the short form—sits within employment law. It identifies certain prescribed people to whom a whistleblower can confidentially disclose information, but when a whistleblower is exposed, as often happens, PIDA uses the employment tribunal as its mechanism to protect whistleblowers. That protection is available only for whistleblowers who are also workers.

Amendment 126 seeks to expand the definition of a worker to include self-employed contractors, sub-postmasters, the judiciary, non-execs, trustees, trade union reps and job applicants. I suspect that most people in this House have been unaware of how many people are not covered by the current whistleblowing framework. This improvement can stretch the definition only so far because PIDA is an employment law, so clients, suppliers, relatives and associates—I could go on—will still not be covered, but some improvement is better than none.

When a whistleblower is covered by PIDA and becomes a victim of retaliation because of their whistleblowing, they can take a case to the employment tribunal. However, in tribunal, the whistleblower must prove to a very high standard that they received detriment because of their whistleblowing. That is why 96% of whistleblowers acknowledged by the tribunal as whistleblowers still lose their cases or are forced to settle and sign an NDA. To win, they have to produce evidence such as an email trail, which is usually wiped clean, or a manager involved in their dismissal who will testify definitively. Amendment 125 reverses that burden of proof and says, “If you are a whistleblower, it should be assumed by the tribunal that you have been fired because of your whistleblowing, unless the employer can demonstrate otherwise”.

Lastly, on the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Wills, I address Amendment 147, which requires an employer to take reasonable steps to investigate information disclosed by whistleblowers. This follows on from the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Morrissey, in an earlier group. There are some brilliant companies and agencies that will leap on a piece of information and check it out seriously. Usually, however, the wagons are circled to protect a reputation and sometimes profits. Every survey of whistleblowers shows that their number one concern, even above their own well-being, is investigation.

I turn now to Amendment 130, which is in my name and attempts to deal with every one of these issues and many more by setting up an office of the whistleblower that would sit alongside PIDA. The language has been developed by legal practitioners in the field under the umbrella of WhistleblowersUK, to whom I owe much for its hard work and insight. Protect, a well-known civic society group, supports the OWB concept, which I also very much appreciate.

Such an office would provide a hub for the many spokes of regulators and informants’ agencies. It would protect and support whistleblowers, oversee whistleblowing processes and enforce compliance with standards. It could safely be used by whistleblowers to make disclosures. If whistleblowers are subject to retaliation, including dismissal or blacklisting, it could bring action. It could prevent the wrongful exercise of NDAs, make sure that disclosures are investigated and deal with complex issues such as reward schemes, which I believe some noble Lords intend to speak on.

I really do not have time to make the case for this because I am covering so much ground, but we know from the USA that offices of the whistleblower have an enviable track record of cracking down on wrongdoing: they deter crime, which is crucial, and they more than pay for themselves.

Whistleblowers tell regulators and investigators where in the haystack the needle is buried, and they provide the critical evidence. Many regulators and investigative agencies are now on board with the idea of an office of the whistleblower. I admit that it does not belong in this Bill, which is why I am limiting my comments, but it would be complementary to it.

I have heard some people say that if a whistleblower belongs to a union, they are protected when they whistleblow, and in an employment tribunal. Sadly, the protection is very limited, and it is not the union’s fault. First, a trade union rep is not a prescribed person—they can be required to disclose any information they have been given. Secondly, while a union member has access to insurance, which indemnifies against the cost of legal services in a case before the employment tribunal, the insurance company can and does refuse to pay where it believes the likelihood of a win is less than 51%.

I have told noble Lords about the record in whistleblowing cases. Insurance companies, almost as standard practice, regard a whistleblowing case as one that does not meet that test and therefore do not pay in the first place, or force acceptance of a settlement which they deem to be reasonable but, inevitably, no one else does.

I am trying to make the case that the Government need to act on both fronts. The NDAs that silence people subject to harassment surely should now come to an end. Broader reform of the whistleblowing framework is urgently needed. If the noble Lord, Lord Wills, had been reading his speech, he would have reminded people of Grenfell, the Post Office, Carillion, the Letby scandal. You can go down a constant list where the public has said, “Why did no one speak out?” Typically, they did, but they were not heard and then they were silenced.

If we are to end that chain of scandals, we have to become serious about the way we deal with harassment and whistleblowing. The modest steps that have been recommended in these amendments are ones the Government can take up; then, the much more significant issue has to be followed up in a later context. I beg to move.

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 101 in my name, in which I am joined, as we have heard, by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, but also by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, who, of course, was the leader of the TUC, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Morrissey, from the world of finance and business. Many people in this Committee are going to support some way of dealing with the misuse of non-disclosure agreements.

I make it clear that there is no suggestion here of banning NDAs generally. There is a role for NDAs—people leaving employment should not be able to take with them the secrets of the company or its client list, for example. What we are talking about is the misuse of non-disclosure agreements to silence complainants, particularly women complaining of sexual harassment and abusive conduct by employers, supervisors, the boss, fellow workers or the client of an employer. I remind the Committee that since NDAs came into existence, complainants have been coerced into signing such an agreement on bringing a complaint in the workplace. Often, it is a way of waving people out and into non-employment in that workplace.

I emphasise that the amendment would not ban all NDAs. It is not preventing the use of NDAs in such proper cases as I have mentioned. But if the complainant requests a non-disclosure agreement because that is what, let us say, she would like to have, the amendment requires that she be offered independent legal advice. I am very supportive of the suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morrissey, that there be some way in which that might be funded, certainly in the corporate world, by the employer. We may be able to talk through in this Committee how provision might be made for the employee to be given that kind of independent advice, separate from the lawyers for the firm.

The independent advice has to involve advising on more than just a non-disclosure agreement but also on all the other alternatives that might be available to a worker who has experienced harassment, sexual harassment, abusive conduct or bullying. There has to be full consent if the exemption is going to work. In general, what we are calling for is that a non-disclosure agreement should not be used to silence complainants. I make that simple and clear. I cannot understand why that would be resisted by a progressive Government seeking to create good workplaces.

This amendment lists persons whom a worker may be allowed to speak to. I advised Zelda Perkins, who was just mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. She had signed a non-disclosure agreement all those many years ago relating to Harvey Weinstein, because of something that had been done not to her but to her coworker. She was encouraged to sign it and she and the coworker, who had been seriously abused, were ushered out of Miramax with a payment. They were in their early 20s at the time and accepted the settlement, knowing no better. In the years that followed, they often felt deeply regretful about the way in which that happened and that they were put in the hands of lawyers chosen by the employer. They signed non-disclosure agreements which said they could not speak to their doctor or to any lawyer or therapist, and that they could not take support from any other source.

That is why my Amendment 101 mentions the kind of people one ought to be allowed to turn to and confide in. People need to be able to do that. Non-disclosures should not prevent people taking support from a family member, spiritual counsellor, community elder or the many other people I have listed.

This amendment deals with one of the problems that takes place. The reason why Zelda Perkins eventually breached her non-disclosure agreement and spoke out—with great fear, because she thought she would then be sued by Miramax—was the public interest that arose at the time. She wanted to support the many other women who had stepped forward and were being disbelieved, because she could explain that she had been subjected to that kind of pressure when she was speaking to the abuse that had been experienced by her colleague at work. She ended up fearful and took legal advice because she was worried that she would be sued for speaking out.

That is why we are asking that non-disclosure agreements should not be misused in this way to silence women. I have had the experience over the last few years of chairing inquiries in a number of different circumstances. One of the shocking things that comes to light is the frequency with which non-disclosure agreements are used for this purpose and the number of times that these agreements are used basically to usher somebody out of the business. The person with power, who is more senior in the organisation, gets away with it and there is no way of remedying it.

Non-disclosure agreements and their misuse should be addressed in the Bill. I urge the Government to do so. I hope that, at the end of all this, we will be able to come together with the Government to find an amalgamation of the number of somewhat similar amendments here to really deliver justice for women in the workplace.

My Lords, I will speak to several amendments in this group that I have signed, which are all very good.

Non-disclosure agreements can be exceptionally toxic and corrosive, because they can be used to cover up wrongdoing by an employer. It is a very dangerous game. They are not simply a contractual arrangement between two willing parties; the employer’s wrongdoing could affect other employees as well, so their effect is much wider than on the employee who is party to the agreement. I very much support Amendments 98 and 101, and I hope that—as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, says—we can find common agreement on them. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, did a very thorough skate-through of all of this, so I will mention only three of the amendments that I have signed.

I feel very strongly about this. Whistleblowers save public money and expose bad practice. They should be celebrated, yet they are treated as traitors by professions, public services and corporations. Amendment 147 would turn that around by placing a duty to investigate on those organisations. My own experience of a whistleblower was when a police officer came forward and told me about the domestic extremist database that I was on. Thousands of other people were on that database as well, including journalists, MPs—such as Caroline Lucas—and local councillors. There were all sorts of people on it, but the two things we all had in common were that none of us had committed a criminal act of any kind and that we had all said things that challenged the status quo. That was enough to get us on to that domestic extremist database.

I cannot imagine how much it cost. The police were tracking all of us and keeping details of what we were doing, such as when I spoke in Trafalgar Square or went on a cycle ride. All these things about me were kept on that database—what an absolute waste of police time and taxpayer money for pointless spying. I put everything out on social media, so they could have just followed me there. Ex-spy cop Peter Francis blew the whistle on how the special demonstration squad was spying on the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, when she and her husband were campaigning to get justice for their dead son.

Whistleblowers need reassurance that they will be taken seriously, and giving the company or organisation they work for a duty to investigate would provide that. It would also combine with the Government’s new duty of candour to help change the culture of many organisations. I know the Minister is keen to speed up the Bill’s progress, and I do not think that this side of the Chamber is helping in any way, but the current Laws are outdated and inadequate, so rather than spending ages examining the whole subject, it would be good just to adopt the very modest Amendment 147.

Amendment 126 would ensure that those whistle-blowers left out by the existing framework finally receive legal protection. The last 25 years have seen a massive rise in self-employment and subcontracting. There are now many more people in workplaces who may spot wrongdoing or risks who have no legal remedy if they blow the whistle. The Post Office Horizon scandal saw hundreds of sub-postmasters wrongly accused and sometimes imprisoned for fraud and false accounting. Lots of people knew that the Horizon system was going wrong from very early on, but the sub-postmasters did not have the legal protection to blow the whistle.

This amendment also grants whistleblowers strong protection from blacklisting when applying for work. At present, only job applicants in the NHS are protected from discrimination as whistleblowers. We encourage those NHS workers to speak up because it saves lives, but we allow workers in the building industry to be blacklisted for raising health and safety concerns that would stop deaths on dangerous sites. Some of those in the building trade had to emigrate to find a job; this amendment would have helped protect them. I understand the Government saying that they need to consult first, but a lot of that legwork was carried out by the previous Government. It seems ridiculous not to publish that whistleblower framework immediately so that we can make change happen faster.

Amendment 281 seeks to make express provision for court discretion to void non-disclosure clauses in employment contracts. The growth of the use of non-disclosure agreements is a big concern. Recent allegations that gagging clauses contributed to the cover-up of decades of sexual abuse by former Harrods owner Mohamed Al Fayed have once again led to calls to ban them here in the UK. Last September, the BBC revealed that five women claimed that the billionaire Mohamed Al Fayed raped them while they were working at Harrods department store. We have already heard that, as others were, they were forced into signing an NDA to prevent their speaking out. These agreements, as I described them earlier, can be corrosive, toxic and immensely damaging to the individuals who sign them and then regret doing so.

This is a really important group. I hope the Minister can meet some of us to discuss a way forward to incorporate some of the sense of these amendments into the Bill.

My Lords, it is telling that so many amendments have been tabled from across the Committee for discussion. Amendments 98, 101, 101A and 101C all aim to restrict the use of non-disclosure agreements in sexual harassment cases. There has already been considerable debate in the other place on this as well, led by Louise Haigh MP. I hope and believe that the strength of feeling and the rationale behind it are encouraging the Minister to consider tabling the Government’s own Amendment to the Bill. The Bill provides such a wonderful opportunity to address a practice that has gone on for far too long, as others have talked about. Of course, this is not an academic issue. It has a real cost and causes real detriment to people’s lives and, of course, to their careers.

I speak in support of all these amendments and have added my name specifically to the one tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, because it sets out clear limitations on the silence that has, to date, been able to be bought through NDAs, while enabling workers to request an NDA, since that can help them move on with their lives, but under only certain conditions, including receiving “independent legal advice”. I want to clarify my additional Amendment 101A, which seeks to strengthen this provision by requiring employers to contribute to legal fees. We know that fees put many women off seeking advice: it seems very daunting, and then they have to pay for it at seemingly unlimited cost. I note that Ireland, which has been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, has already adopted this practice of allowing NDAs for sexual harassment cases only in what are described as “excepted circumstances”. In those cases, employers are required to cover the employee’s reasonable legal costs.

I have suggested quite a specific figure, although I stress that it is the principle rather than any specific amount that is important. I note that I came up with that figure after consulting lawyers specialising in these matters. The key is that such costs would be borne only by those employers that have reason to enter into such agreements. Firms with good cultures that do not have sexual harassment cases will not need to enter into NDAs. They will have nothing to pay—another incentive to encourage companies to prevent harassment occurring in the first place.

As has been mentioned by others, those of us who have tabled our various amendments and supported the views of others will be very pleased to consolidate our suggestions into one amendment that is simple and workable, and will achieve the goal of limiting the use of NDAs so that they are not misused but used to help victims move on. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s thoughts and again urge the Government to use this opportunity to finally end a practice that has gone on far too long and been completely unchecked.

We all know about the #MeToo scandal and the causes célèbres, but until the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, talked about her experience as chair of inquiries and explained that the ones we hear about are, effectively, the tip of the iceberg, I would have said that we do not actually know much about the scale of the problem. No data is reported at present on the use of NDAs for sexual harassment and, of course, the nature of these agreements means that there are no revelations about the underlying issues. From personal experience, I have heard from women working in finance who sometimes use a third party to tell me their story because they are keen to see something done about it. I can only surmise that there must be many more in other sectors who do not come forward.

My final conclusion is: enough is enough. I urge the Government to seize the opportunity afforded by the Bill to restrict this misuse of NDAs.

My Lords, I support Amendments 98, 101 and 101A, and Amendment 101C, which is in my name. Also, I support my noble friends Lady O’Grady, Lady Kennedy and Lady Chakrabarti, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Morrissey and Lady Kramer, and the work they have done on these issues over the years. I thank Members of the other place for their support, including the meeting they called for us with Zelda Perkins last week, which was really helpful, and the organisations outside that have written to us all over a long period asking for support on this issue.

These amendments are all about harassment, which, surely, we are all against. If not, it is about time we were. Harassment includes sexual harassment and, surely, we are all very concerned about sexual harassment. It is obvious that we cannot combat sexual harassment effectively, which is what is required, if it is hidden from the light of day by being covered up by, or on behalf of, the perpetrator. We know that perpetrators get away and get jobs in other places. It is pernicious that all too often it is covered up and deliberately hidden from sight by so-called non-disclosure agreements. The title does not sound as objectionable as cover-up agreements, but that is precisely what they are. They are cover-up agreements, in intention and effect. They impose a positive obligation not to disclose what should otherwise be disclosed. They are pernicious, and bad apples in character. They perpetuate harassment. You can get away with harassment if you can secure a non-disclosure agreement by paying a bribe. Nothing could be more anti-social. Nothing represents a more toxic workplace culture or better ensures its continuation. Whistleblowers are silenced. If a disclosure is relevant, it should be disclosed—that is, a disclosure about harassment that has been committed, is being committed or is likely to be committed. They are all highly relevant exposures, which would thereby avoid harassment.

This is about ethical standards and workplace misconduct—indeed, gross misconduct. It is not about protecting confidential business information. I say that because that is important. We understand those non-disclosure agreements. This is about sexual harassment. On one hand, transparency and freedom of expression are virtues. On the other, confidentiality, privacy and the protection of personal data are virtues. There can be tensions between legitimate considerations that may tug in different directions. Balances have to be struck but—and it is a big “but”—that may not work well when one party is more powerful than the other. In the case of, for example, Harvey Weinstein, there may also be an important public interest in a disclosure. Non-disclosure agreements need to be properly regulated and not permitted to continue in the way they have and to have their chilling effects. This is especially so when the disclosure ban arises in the context of an employee and employer and/or relates to harassment, bullying or discrimination, including, importantly, sexual harassment, and intellectual property rights and competition considerations are not engaged. It is time to act to prevent the misuse and abuse of NDAs, which should not continue. It has continued for too long. I very much hope that the Minister will meet a group of us to see how we can consolidate a small amendment to the Bill that would strengthen it greatly.

Hear, hear! It was a very good speech.

There we go. We have had the adjudication. It was a very good speech. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch. She demonstrated the patience of a saint in earlier, more contentious groups, if I can put it like that. If there needs to be further evidence of her patience, I was very grateful for the significant time that she and her Bill team and other experts gave me to discuss this issue and a later issue in the Bill.

Numerical accidents aside, I have to commend the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on her impeccable opening to the debate. I think we can all agree that it was a fabulous tour de force around the issues.

In contrast to the Bill as a whole or previous groups, there is some serious room for non-partisan and cross-partisan consensus in this area. I really do believe that, for reasons that ought to be self-evident from what we have heard from Members of the Committee already.

We have heard from noble Lords—actually, it may be a total accident but I think it has been noble Baronesses so far—and we know that there is a place for a certain type of non-disclosure agreement to protect commercial confidences and client lists, et cetera. We are trying to be more balanced and more forensic than that in this group, and we know why. We want to protect those things, to have a decent employment relationship and to have commerce and so on, but not to have the abuses. I suggest that the abuses have to go broader than harassment; that is why Amendment 281 in my name is drafted in terms of illegal activity more broadly. I will say more on that in a moment.

I support the thrust, the intention and the aspiration of all the amendments in the group. At this stage I consider them all probing amendments. Realistically, I suspect that what the Committee, or everyone who has spoken so far, wants is a government amendment, informed by these discussions, that we can all get behind. That is the way to do it, obviously.

I will speak in favour of Amendment 281, or of the drafting approach that I have taken, having listened to other Members of the Committee and tried to take on board their Second Reading speeches and their considerable work, over many years in some cases. I commend Amendment 281 because it aspires to some simplicity, some versatility, some breadth and the avoidance of unintended consequences.

For example, it is broader than harassment. The approach I have taken is based on my understanding of what the common-law position was anyway. Like everyone else in the Committee and beyond, I watched the scandals around Harvey Weinstein and #MeToo, et cetera. When they began to erupt—and, goodness me, do they not keep on coming?—my analysis, my view, was that these contractual agreements were all voidable in the public interest in any event. As a matter of common-law principle, they should all have been voidable in a court and therefore unenforceable in any event. The problem with relying on just my understanding of the common law is that it does not send a signal to the wicked employers—not all of them, but the ones who are wicked—nor give confidence to victims, whistleblowers and so on.

This is one of the areas where there is some value in putting some common-law principle clearly, succinctly and non-exhaustively on the face of a statute, to give confidence and clarity so that people know that abusive non-disclosure agreements—not the ones that we think are valuable, but abusive ones—which are being used to silence and cover up revelations of illegal activity, broadly, will not be enforceable in court, whether or not you have shelled out some money in the first place. That was what I attempted to do in the drafting approach that I chose with Amendment 281.

Members of the Committee who have come armed with the actual Marshalled List, which I know is a novel thing to do, will find Amendment 281 on page 114. The approach I have taken is to say that non-disclosure agreements are voidable. They are not automatically so, but they are voidable—that is, in those circumstances, unenforceable—if they prevent disclosure of conduct that may be contrary to law.

When a court is considering whether to void such an agreement—to make it unenforceable—there are certain factors that ought to be taken into account. The severity of the allegation of proven or admitted conduct, including the veracity of those allegations, would come up in an attempt by the former employer or current employer to enforce this agreement. The second factor is whether all parties to the contract were in receipt of independent legal advice. This means that an employer trying to construct one of these agreements and to get an employee to agree to it will have to realise that if that independent legal advice is not evidenced and not provided, later, the whole thing will be an expensive waste of time, because it is likely to be voided in the public interest by a court or tribunal. Therefore, they had better do what employers often do in standard consent agreements, which is pay for independent advice and have that witnessed.

The next provision is taking into account the views of all the parties and, because the victim of any illegal conduct might not actually be a party to the agreement, the views of any such victim. Finally, we need to retain the discretion of a court or tribunal to decide whether to restore any funds that were given in consideration for the agreement, and if so, how much. That may seem odd, but the reason is that it is perfectly possible that an employer, in good faith, sacked one employee who committed an illegal act or harassment, or perpetrated a wrong against another employee, but the victim wanted to leave anyway and wanted a non-disclosure agreement. There are times, even when there has been bad behaviour or illegal conduct, when a good employer might in good faith compensate the victim and sack the perpetrator. Therefore, the agreement could actually be a positive thing.

On Amendment 281, we should make it clear that these are discretions that sit rightly with the court, but the public need to know that this is the position, so that victims, whistleblowers and other employees can have confidence that these arrangements cannot be abusive, and employers will be on notice. On that basis, I commend this approach and put it into the mix for discussion. It is a big Bill and my noble friend the Minister, notwithstanding her patience, has a lot on her plate, but there is a real possibility here for the Government to come up with something that has broad consensus, and that might actually help and work.

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti and to support Amendment 101 in the names of my noble friend Lady Kennedy and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Morrissey. I think that many of us are speaking in support of all the amendments that are trying to achieve the same result, and it is a real tribute that the strength of support is so broad across the Committee.

I have warmly welcomed the whole Bill, including the Government’s commitment to ensuring that employers take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment. I thank the Minister for meeting with me to discuss the issue of non-disclosure agreements. My concern is that the Government’s current proposals to deal with the scandal of abusive non-disclosure agreements under whistleblowing legislation fall short of the fundamental principle, for me, that every victim/survivor should have the right to speak up and seek support.

The use of NDAs to cover up abuses of power, we all know, happens in every walk of life. This is not just about Westminster, the City of London, the media and entertainment industries, trade unions, the church or higher education. Let us not forget the all-male Presidents Club charity dinner for captains of industry at the Dorchester Hotel, and the 130 young women, paid £150 for a 10-hour shift, who were handed five-page non-disclosure agreements just moments before they went out to serve. According to a CIPD survey, one in five employers have used NDAs in cases of sexual harassment.

My worry is that the public interest test contained in whistleblowing legislation sets a very high bar for protected disclosure, and that most victims will remain silenced. What about, for example, if the perpetrator is not prominent in public, business or cultural life? Can the Minister confirm whether a disclosure by workers would meet the public interest test in those circumstances? Or what about one individual worker who is harassed and does not know whether other workers are at risk? Will that satisfy the criteria for public interest under whistleblowing law? Perhaps the Minister can also confirm whether government proposals cover only sexual harassment? Or do they also cover racism and all forms of harassment faced by those with protected characteristics under equality law? Will misconduct such as bullying on those grounds be included?

I thank the Minister for that meeting and for writing to me afterwards. I agree that there will be lessons to learn from new legislation in Ireland and elsewhere, but I cannot agree that that is a reason for holding back. If ever there was a case for going further and faster, then this is it. Women and all those suffering in silence have waited long enough.

The TUC—I should declare that I am a former general secretary—has long held a position that NDAs should not be used in any case of harassment, discrimination or victimisation. According to a report published this year, again by CIPD, nearly half of employers would support a ban on the use of NDAs, with only 18% opposing such a ban. Can’t Buy My Silence and other campaign groups enjoy huge public support. There is a broad cross-party consensus for action that unites both sides of industry.

Will the Minister reassure us today that the door is still open for the Government to strengthen the Bill along the lines proposed by my noble friend Lady Kennedy and, importantly, send a message to all those who have suffered alone and in silence, and to all those who, as a result of that silence, have been put at risk, that real change is on its way?

My Lords, as the first boy to speak tonight, I want to say what a pleasure it is to follow such a powerful and persuasive group of speakers. I support all the amendments in this group.

I turn first to the NDA amendments. NDAs can be appropriate in sectors where intellectual property, commercial confidentiality or security issues apply. In fact, I should declare that I have recently signed one in a commercial context. These documents are typically pre-contract or part of terms of employment and signed up to by a worker at the start of their employment. Usually, they apply to everyone in a relevant area rather than being targeted at an individual.

By contrast, the NDAs these amendments address are very different; they generally arise during employment and act retrospectively—in other words, when something happens that should not have done.

I was always taught that you cannot contract out of the law: that an agreement or contract that enables or conceals something illegal is potentially itself illegal, and at least void and unenforceable. Under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, harassment is a crime. Therefore, it seems to me that an NDA in respect of —as Amendment 101 points out—harassment, sexual misconduct, retaliation and discrimination or any other crime comes very close to trying to contract out of the law.

I would broaden the definition, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has done in her amendment, to void any NDAs that cover any form of illegality. Indeed, a wrongdoer requesting an NDA in such circumstances feels tantamount, to me, to an admission of guilt. NDAs being put forward by the powerful to protect themselves from publicity around a wrongdoing is, at the very best, contrary to the HR policies of any decent employer.

While these amendments seek to prevent the misuse of NDAs, they also provide—as others have spoken about—for workers themselves requesting an NDA. Consequently, NDAs do have a place with proper advice to both parties: what Amendment 101 calls “fully-informed consent”. In short, voiding NDAs that amount to an abuse of power while recognising that a worker may themselves seek an NDA feels like the right balance.

Finally on NDAs, to date there has been a superabundance of consultations and inquiries— as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, pointed out— into the misuse of NDAs from a very wide range of organisations. Now, and I hope the Minister will agree, we need action—no more discussions and consultations. We know what the problem is; we just need to sort it out. I therefore ask the Minister to confirm that the Government will either present or support a suitably consolidated amendment on Report, as others have requested.

I also support the amendments on whistleblowing. Amendment 125 would close what amounts to a loophole. On Amendment 126, something that has bedevilled whistleblowing for a very long time is the overly tight definition of who can be a whistleblower. The amendment is therefore a welcome step in expanding that category, though it does not go as far as it needs to, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, has shared with us tonight.

Amendment 147 concerns the crucial point of a duty to investigate. Many companies—particularly larger ones—have on paper, somewhere in their files, a well-drafted policy intended to support whistleblowers. However, many people who become whistleblowers typically do not see themselves as such initially. Often, they are simply trying to point out where something is wrong and needs addressing. It is what happens next that turns them into a whistleblower.

The corporate reaction to highlighting problems or concerns is often viscerally and personally hostile. Such people are seen as troublemakers, snitches or even traitors. They are often, almost from the outset, isolated, stigmatised and persecuted. To deal with that reaction, there is a need, as Amendment 147— another great amendment—sets out, for an automatic duty to investigate properly, which means having well-delineated and well-understood processes recognising and incorporating whistleblowing that are actually followed in practice with action, and to pick up issues and deal with them constructively and, if possible, before they escalate into a whistleblowing incident.

On Amendment 130, an office of the whistleblower would have both a systemic role in improving and monitoring whistleblower treatment, standards and processes, and a much-needed personal role in supporting whistleblowers as individuals, as again the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, so eloquently laid out.

I will touch quickly on two related points. First, investors have a role here, although they often get forgotten in these discussions. They have a clear interest in knowing what is going on inside organisations they are entrusting with their money. I know from talking to them that they support better engagement and using their considerable leverage to get matters improved. Secondly, in the UK we do not compensate or reward whistleblowers. Being a whistleblower is expensive, sometimes ruinously so. Legal Bills, loss of income and being made completely unemployable often follow. Yet the UK attitude to date has been that doing the right thing should not be rewarded—as if it was somehow vulgar—or even the personal losses incurred recouped. That correlates with the lower reporting of problems in the UK compared with the US and other jurisdictions. This has changed a little recently, and both the current director of the Serious Fraud Office and his predecessor have spoken in public in favour of paying whistleblowers. The FCA has stated that it is not in principle against this—a very British statement—and HMRC and the CMA already give modest payments for information on, for example, tax fraud.

The UK needs to catch up. I hope that the role of investors and whistleblower compensation are things that we can come back to, but for now I support all the amendments in this group and I sincerely hope that the Minister will do the same.

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell. This group of amendments, in particular those dealing with non-disclosure agreements, deals with issues that are of cardinal importance in making workplaces safe for in particular but not only women. I support them and will speak briefly to Amendment 101 and others.

I cannot add to the comprehensive and telling introductions by my noble friends Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, Lady Chakrabarti and Lady O’Grady, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and indeed all the others, but I will just remind the Committee of the fact that my experience of employment tribunals confirms the need for these amendments to the Bill. It is not only the high-profile cases that we hear about which are representative of the problem. I got to know of very many instances of women in low-paid, insecure work, often from minority-ethnic backgrounds or even disabled, who could not afford legal advice, which was addressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Morrissey.

When this issue was raised at Second Reading, my noble friend the Minister answered very positively, but I share the opinion that more must be done and I hope she will do it. If we can make our universities safer by banning NDAs in cases of sexual harassment, then the least we can do is to mirror those safeguards for employment.

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell. That a Lucas can agree with a Cromwell demonstrates the healing power of time—it has taken only 400 years.

I support the amendments in this group, particularly Amendment 101. I very much like the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, because it would draw in what happened to my friend who went through the NDA process. I like Amendment 147 because, as the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, said, this should all be about producing better behaviour. You want an incidence of bad behaviour to lead to better behaviour, not to disguise and cover-up. That ought to be the fundamental drive of the process.

To add a couple of sidelights, I am told it is very much current employment practice to ask, when taking a reference from a previous employer, whether an NDA has been signed. If the answer is yes, you take that employment no further—so NDAs can be really damaging things to sign. It is therefore important that someone signing one has achieved the fully informed consent that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, referred to.

Another aspect of obscurity is in tribunal awards. I note, for instance, that tribunal awards that really criticise what has gone on in a school remain private. They never get sent to Ofsted. We ought to be using that tribunal process and what it has discovered to produce change. Where these things cannot be made public, as is often the case, they ought none the less to get into the system in a way which encourages better behaviour in future.

My Lords, this has been an important debate. As the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, said—I apologise if I have mispronounced her name—most if not all speakers have worked on these two important and connected issues for years. That has been reflected in the quality of the speeches we have heard. It also reflects the fact that progress has not been made. We need to make progress here.

The traditional approach from Ministers in situations such as this is to say, “These are important issues and we agree something needs to be done”, and then either “We need more consultation”, as my noble friend pointed out, or “This is not the right vehicle for these issues”. Those are the two excuses that will be given. The point on consultation has been well made by my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell. As for whether this is an appropriate vehicle, just look at this Bill. It is well over 300 pages and covers almost every aspect of employment. To say there is no room in this Bill—I am pre-empting what may or may not be said—would be wrong. There is more than enough space in this Bill to cover these issues.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Morrissey, said, this was debated in the Commons and my Honourable Friend Layla Moran also had an Amendment on this issue, but the Bill came here without it. The safe way of making sure that this can survive contact with a very large Majority at the other end is for the Minister to take this on and put it in the Bill on the Government’s behalf. We have heard a lot of excellent speeches from the Minister’s own Benches, as well as across the Floor. Clearly, we can all agree on both these issues. The Minister should stand up and say “We will take this on, work with all interested parties and produce two amendments for both of these issues” to address what has clearly been going on for too long without being resolved in legislation.

My Lords, I agree that this has been an extremely interesting debate. I thank all noble Baronesses—they are mostly Baronesses, with some noble Lords—for their contributions. In particular, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, deserves singling out for her very thought-provoking introduction to this group.

As my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral pointed out in the previous group, every individual should feel safe and supported in their working environment. We recognise that NDAs have deviated from their original purpose, which was to protect trade secrets and intellectual property, as the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and Lady Goudie, pointed out. They have been abused in some circumstances, particularly where they are used to silence the victims of misconduct, which includes sexual harassment.

However, we must also acknowledge there are some cases where NDAs may serve a legitimate purpose. Some individuals may wish to resolve disputes privately, without the need for public disclosure. It is important, therefore, that we do not take a blanket approach but instead consider the context in which NDAs are being used. Many of the amendments acknowledge those simple facts. Having said that, we also need to consider the wider impact that NDAs might have—for example, in cases of medical malpractice. How can society and the medical profession learn from mistakes that are not made public?

It is clear that further scrutiny of NDAs is essential. The potential for abuse cannot be ignored, and we must ensure that any agreement entered into is fully informed and entirely voluntary. I will briefly speak as a non-lawyer, because I was particularly taken by Amendment 281, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, I was rather shocked that such an NDA might exist even under the current regime. How can one sign a legally binding document that prevents the disclosure of a breach of the law? With apologies to my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, I say that only the legal profession could manage the perverse logic to invent such a thing.

As we have seen, particularly in the NHS, whistle-blowers are often the individuals who bravely speak out against wrongdoing, misconduct or unethical practices that might otherwise go unnoticed. Their courage in raising concerns is critical to maintaining trust and ensuring that the organisation remains committed to the highest ethical standards.

Both noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb, referred to the NHS. I looked into this earlier, and in one high-profile case, the NHS spent over £4 million on legal action against a single whistleblower, including a £3.2 million compensation settlement. This sparked criticism from Professor Phil Banfield, the chairman of the British Medical Association, who argued that whistleblowing is often not welcomed by NHS management. He emphasised that NHS trusts and senior managers are more focused on protecting their reputations than addressing the concerns of whistleblowers or prioritising patient safety. That is clearly a very unacceptable state of affairs, and that example alone suggests that the Government should take these amendments extremely seriously.

I am sure that the Minister is about to stand up and offer to have further discussions on this subject. We will pre-empt her and volunteer to take part in those discussions. There is clearly much more work to be done in this area. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s remarks.

My Lords, I genuinely thank all noble Lords—they have mainly been noble Baronesses—who have taken part in this excellent debate, in which we have addressed some important, salient and highly concerning issues about the misuse of non-disclosure agreements. We have heard some very moving and completely unacceptable examples that have no place in the modern workplace.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and my noble friends Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and Lady Goudie, for their Amendments 98, 101 and 101C, which seek to restrict the use of non-disclosure agreements that prevent workers disclosing certain misconduct. My noble friend Lady Kennedy’s Amendment looks to apply this to a broader category of misconduct, including harassment, retaliation and discrimination. I also acknowledge that the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and my noble friend Lady Kennedy make it clear that workers should still be able to request confidentiality protections in agreements between a worker and employer, if they so choose. A number of noble Lords have reiterated that that is an important principle.

I also thank my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti for her Amendment 281, which makes express provision for a court to void an NDA in the public interest if it seeks to prevent the disclosure of illegal conduct by the employer. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, that my noble friend made a very compelling case on that issue.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morrissey, for Amendment 101A and her contribution today. Her amendment would void any provision in an NDA that prevents a worker making a disclosure about sexual harassment. However, it would allow NDAs in settlement agreements to stand where the victim of sexual harassment requests them and where they have received independent legal advice. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, for his comments in support of that amendment.

Today’s debate on NDAs demonstrates the best elements of your Lordships’ House. Points have been well made by all noble Lords, and we have listened carefully to their arguments. I was grateful to have the opportunity to meet with a number of noble Lords in recent weeks to reaffirm the Government’s position on the misuse of NDAs and to understand the intention behind these amendments. Let me be clear: NDAs should never be used to silence victims of sexual harassment and other forms of misconduct in the workplace.

My noble friend Lady O’Grady asked whether the proposals extend beyond sexual harassment. The whistleblowing measures in the Bill cover only sexual harassment. However, the whistleblowing framework already covers disclosures about criminal offences, breaches of legal obligations and endangerment of health and safety. In many cases, harassment and discrimination in the workplace will fall within those categories.

While the Government agree that NDAs should not be misused by employers to conceal misconduct in the workplace, any restrictions on their use must be carefully considered to avoid unintended consequences. For example, confidentiality can allow employers and workers to resolve a dispute and move on without publicity and expensive legal proceedings. It is vital that we take the time to consider any impacts on a worker’s ability to choose the right outcome for themselves, including the option of an NDA.

It is important to note that there are already important legal limits and safeguards to the use of NDAs in the employment context. For example, an NDA which seeks to stop a worker from blowing the whistle by making a protected disclosure on alleged misconduct in the workplace is not enforceable. NDAs also cannot be used to pervert the course of justice or conceal a criminal offence. There are already requirements in place regarding the need for independent advice in settlement agreements relating to sexual harassment and other breaches of the Equality Act 2010. An agreement under the Employment Rights Act 1996 which seeks to prevent a person bringing proceedings under the Act is also void if the worker did not receive advice from a relevant independent adviser on the terms and effect of the agreement. This independent advice must be provided by specified advisers, including qualified lawyers, among others.

None the less, the Government are aware of calls to strengthen restrictions on NDAs. This is why, for example, we are pressing ahead with plans to commence the provisions regarding relevant NDAs in the Victims and Prisoners Act 2024 and the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act 2023. When commenced, Section 17 of the Victims and Prisoners Act will ensure that clauses in NDAs cannot be legally enforced where they seek to prevent victims of crime reporting a crime, co-operating with regulators or accessing confidential advice and support. Provisions in the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act 2023 will introduce a ban on the use of NDAs by higher education providers in relation to complaints of harassment, sexual misconduct and bullying made not just by students but by staff, members and visiting speakers.

To reiterate, NDAs should not be used to silence victims of harassment or other misconduct. I recognise that this is an important issue which warrants further consideration. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, pointed out, the previous Government consulted on confidentiality clauses in 2019, but further evidence and reports have been published since then and we need to learn from those.

While these amendments seek to restrict the use of NDAs, they cover different types of misconduct and employment statuses with varying caveats. As tabled, they highlight the complexity of the policy area and the different approaches that this Government could take to address the misuse of NDAs. The amendments proposed would be wide-reaching changes with significant impact on businesses, which should be consulted. Stakeholders have called for a careful and considered approach to be taken, as NDAs attract different views and opinions. We have heard calls from some organisations to ban NDAs in specific circumstances, while others have advocated for victims to have a greater say in when they can be legitimately used. We have also heard warnings of the unintended consequences for those who are looking to settle and would like to avoid the stress of taking a claim to an employment tribunal. There are also different models and approaches to NDAs where there could be important learning.

Again, the Government have been clear that NDAs should not be misused by employers to conceal misconduct in the workplace, but we know that this is an important issue to address. We are actively looking at all options and recognise the appetite across the House for action in this space.

I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that we are not going to argue that this is not right vehicle for this issue. We will continue to look further at the issues raised previously and in the debate this evening. I genuinely look forward to further engagement with Peers and stakeholders on this matter as the Bill progresses.

Moving on to the important topic of protections for whistleblowers, I thank my noble friend Lord Wills and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for raising it and meeting me previously. I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Wills cannot be with us today. As my noble friend Lady Kennedy illustrated, NDAs and whistleblowers often go hand in hand. Whistleblowers play a key role in shining a light on wrongdoing in the workplace. They need confidence that they will be taken seriously and not poorly treated as a result of doing the right thing.

This Government are taking action to strengthen the whistleblowing framework with a measure in the Bill that makes sexual harassment the basis for a protected disclosure. The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, mentioned the NHS, and we have committed to implementing professional standards for NHS managers to hold them accountable for silencing whistleblowers or endangering patients through misconduct. We also remain committed to a Hillsborough law, which will include a legal duty of candour for public servants and sanctions for those who refuse to comply.

On the specific amendments, Amendment 147 would introduce a legal requirement for employers to take reasonable steps to investigate whistleblowing disclosures. We agree that it is in the interest of all employers to take disclosures seriously and to address issues within their organisation. Many employers already have policies and procedures in place to do this. Others operate within sectors with specific legal or regulatory requirements. We must carefully consider the impact on workers and employers before imposing any blanket duties. In the meantime, protections for whistleblowers are already day-one rights and an employment tribunal can award unlimited compensation.

Amendment 125 would extend the circumstances where an employee is considered unfairly dismissed after making a protected disclosure. Under the Employment Rights Act 1996, a dismissal is automatically unfair where the sole or principal reason is that the employee made a protected whistleblowing disclosure. This sole or principal reason test also applies to other forms of automatic unfair dismissal, such as dismissal for attending jury service or for carrying out activities as a health and safety representative. The proposed new Clause would mean that the protected disclosure would need to be only one of the reasons for the dismissal.

The Government are aware of cases in the courts which have raised concerns about employers relying on other reasons to dismiss employees who have made a protected disclosure. However, employment tribunal cases are fact specific. The Government believe that the tribunal is the right forum for these facts to be considered and that the tribunal has the specialist knowledge to establish whether an employee’s dismissal was principally for a fair reason or because of a protected disclosure. Before considering any amendment to legislation to change the test, it would be important to consider the evidence and issues and to look across the employment law framework on automatic unfair dismissal.

Amendment 126 would significantly expand the definition of worker for whistleblowing protection to include more categories of people, including self-employed contractors and job applicants. Currently, the standard employment law definition of a worker has been extended relative to whistleblowing protections, including a range of employment relationships, such as agency workers, individuals undertaking training or work experience, police officers, certain self-employed staff in the NHS and student nurses and midwives.

The Government believe greater consideration is needed to assess the impact of any expansion of this already broad definition. Ultimately, whistleblowing protections sit in employment law, and we would need to consider any impacts to businesses and others if the definition of worker was to be expanded to include people not in an employment relationship.

Amendment 130, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, would create a new definition of a protected disclosure and require the Secretary of State to establish a new body called the office of the whistleblower. I recognise the hugely valuable role that whistleblowers play in shining a light on damaging and illegal practices in public services, and I would like to pay tribute to the noble Baroness for her long-standing efforts in championing the causes of whistleblowers and seeking reform.

However, the Government are concerned that this amendment would make substantial changes to the whistleblowing framework by introducing a new definition of whistleblowing and establish a new body potentially outside of the employment law framework. It is not clear how this would interact with the existing framework of protection and the enforcement through employment tribunals.

It is also not clear how this would interact with the existing system of prescribed persons, and I am concerned there could be costly duplication. There are more than 90 prescribed persons that a worker can make a protected disclosure to about relevant failures. These are usually regulators, such as the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Financial Conduct Authority, but many others exist as well. In recent years, on average, 50,000 whistleblowing disclosures have been made annually to prescribed persons. These have been highly concentrated in health, public administration and the financial and insurance sectors.

In conclusion, the issues raised are of the utmost importance. While the Government cannot support these amendments for the reasons we have discussed, I assure noble Lords that we have heard the strength of feeling and we will continue to consider further the issues raised during the course of this Bill. But in the meantime, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

My Lords, did I catch the sense that the Government are looking to see what changes they can make now—for instance, picking up on the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, made about the virtue of making it clear that you cannot enforce hiding criminal acts through a non-disclosure agreement? I absolutely agree that this would be something that would work well. The importance of people taking truly independent advice seemed to me to be another example. If indeed that is the case, could she apply the same logic to the Amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron?

May I just add to that? My concern is that my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti is right that, in law, one should not use contractual agreements to avoid criminal processes. However, you do not have criminal processes unless you have a complainant, and often women do not want to go through that process. They would rather have a settlement, but they want to be in control—it is about giving power to the person who is at the receiving end of abusive conduct. That is why we are asking that these amendments be considered, so that, in the light of the Government’s great commitment to the protection of women and girls, women and girls in the workplace have the opportunity of saying, “I would like an agreement, but I want it on my terms” and may choose anonymity so that it does not remain the case, as happens now, that women then carry it forward—they are the ones who bear the burden of having to go public with a complaint. Often, it affects their employment possibilities in the future.

This is about women being in the driving seat when there is a complaint of bad behaviour in the workplace. That is why just having a bland thing saying, “This is criminal conduct, if somebody squeezes a woman’s breast in the workplace or keeps patting their behind and so forth” is not good enough. Women should be allowed to say, “I do not want this to continue. I want to remain in my job. I want protection for my employment, and I want it to be dealt with by way of an agreement where I am in the driving seat”.

My Lords, the answer to both noble Lords—and I think I said this during my response—is that the amendments are all raising really important issues. There is an issue about the breadth of the issues and the extent to which we need to legislate or perhaps amplify things that are already the law but are not understood to be the law. We have more work to do on this, but we are working at pace on it. We still have time before the Bill passes through your Lordship’s House, so I hope we can make some progress during that time.

I am sorry to intervene on the noble Baroness once more. Does that mean she intends to talk to interested Peers before Report?

I have already had one meeting and, as noble Lords will know, I seem to be in perpetual meeting mode. I certainly am very happy to carry on having those discussions.

I would love to join such a meeting. I lost count of the number of times the Minister said “consider”. I hope we are going to do more than consider and are going to act. In addition, her long list of things that are already available just highlights that there is a whole piece of work to be done here about making people aware of what their rights are, what they can access and what is illegal. That, law or no law, is part of the process.

My Lords, I thank the Minister both for the meeting that many of us had before Committee and for her response today. I hope I am not being overoptimistic, but I am reading some positivity in her comments that progress could take place before Report.

I think the ideal, particularly around harassment and NDAs, would be for the Government to come forward with an Amendment of their own, but the Minister will have recognised the drafting skills around this Committee. Between the noble Baronesses, Lady Chakrabarti and Lady Kennedy, and others, we have some of the best legal expertise that we could possibly have. It will be possible, if she is not able to participate in the process, for a consolidated amendment to meet many of the concerns that she raised and satisfy this Committee. I think she will be faced with an amendment to the Bill; I very much hope it is one that will have her name on it.

On whistleblowing, I perfectly accept that this is not the place for the office of the whistleblower. There are many advantages to that process and I hope we get published the revised whistleblowing framework that was promised by the past Government—and, I think, promised by this Government as well—and seems to be sitting lost somewhere in an in-tray. It is really important that we get to look at that.

If the Minister is looking at the amendments that were put before her—and I reinforce the fact that they came from her own Benches, from the noble Lord, Lord Wills, who is really distinguished and expert in this area—she should at the very least look at the issue of investigation, because it lies at the heart of so much of the damage done when whistleblowers speak out. They then become the story and the issue. It is their victimhood that becomes the issue around which every activity takes place, and the underlying problem is not investigated. What whistleblowers ask for more than anything else is a reliable investigative process. If she could take on even just that one part of it, we would have made some progress today. Beyond this Bill. I hope that in the role that she plays she will significantly drive forward the broader agenda. I thank her and beg leave to withdraw Amendment 98.

Amendment 98 withdrawn.

House resumed.

House adjourned at 10.48 pm.