Lord Offord of Garvel:

Moved by Lord Offord of Garvel

23: Clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include the reduction of household energy bills by £300 in real terms by 1 January 2030.”Member's explanatory statementThis ensures that the statement of strategic priorities includes the reduction of household energy bills by £300 by 1 January 2030.

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 23 and 24 in my name. These amendments would require the statement of strategic priorities to include the reduction of household energy bills by £300 per household by 2030 and the creation of 650,000 jobs in the UK by 2030. As noble Lords will recall from our debates in Committee, throughout the election campaign, the Government repeatedly promised that GB Energy would cut household energy bills by an average of £300 per household. In fact, a similar claim was made by at least 50 MPs, and the Science Secretary said:

“I can tell you directly … by the end of this Parliament that … energy bills will fall by up to £300”.

On 19 June last year, the Chancellor said:

“GB Energy, a publicly owned company, will cut energy bills by up to £300”.

Finally, in an interview in June, the Secretary of State claimed that Great British Energy would lead to a “mind-blowing” reduction in bills by 2030. Considering that the Government had no qualms about repeating this promise time and again and appeared proud to do so, it is strange that they do not commit to this promise by including it in the drafting of this legislation.

That was not the only promise made by the Government. They also said that GB Energy would create 650,000 new jobs. Despite this, in the other place, the Government voted against Conservative amendments to make cutting energy bills by £300 and creating 650,000 new jobs a strategic priority for GB Energy. In so doing, they were voting against amendments that would hold them to their word.

Only last week, in a rather unconvincing interview on Sky News, the chair of GB Energy admitted that the Government’s pledge that GB Energy would create 1,000 jobs at its headquarters could take 20 years to deliver. In the same interview, he repeatedly refused to say when household bills would be cut, although the Prime Minister promised that GB Energy would save consumers £300 each. These promises are important to the British people, and the Government have already put at risk 200,000 existing jobs in North Sea oil and gas. They impact on people’s energy bills, their business and their jobs.

It is essential that the Government are held to account. We know there is a transition; we know that those 200,000 jobs can transition to the direction of travel in renewables and nuclear, but by accelerating unilaterally, there is going to be a gap, and the problem is that we are going to lose skills in the middle.

With that said, I look to the Minister to confirm exactly by how much consumers can expect their energy bills to fall—by £300, or pick another number. Will he give a commitment that GB Energy will reduce household energy bills, and how many jobs exactly will GB Energy create in the UK by 2030? I look forward to receiving a clear and positive reply, and I intend to test the opinion of the House on these matters.

My Lords, it seems to me that this is not the sort of thing that ought to be in this Bill. I do not remember Conservative Party immigration legislation ever mentioning numbers, despite everything that was said by it. That brings complete disrepute to legislation and Governments at the time; I do not think that we should be attracted into that situation with this Bill.

My Lords, it is clearly the Government who have come up with this number: that they are going to reduce energy bills by £300 per household. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that it is nothing to do with the Opposition. This issue is very important. This is a commitment that has been made by the Government. We should have it in legislation to make sure that it is delivered on; if we do not, it will indicate that the Government are not serious about this matter. It matters very much to people in this country that we reduce their energy bills. Many of us think that it is not going to happen. On the other hand, the Government have constantly assured us that it is going to happen and that, somehow, energy bills are going to come down. I think that many people in this country are looking forward to that, because we want to see a dividend for all this greenery. We have heard already from the noble Lord on the Liberal Democrat Benches that this is the effect of green energy: it brings down your electricity bills. Well, as far as most people in this country are concerned, so far, we have just seen our energy bills go up and not down. I think there is a lot of cynicism around that green energy does not deliver lower prices.

My Lords, would the noble Lord like to comment on the energy bills when his Government were in office?

The British people made a decision on the previous Conservative Government. They did not think much of our record and thought even less of our manifesto, so they made it quite clear that they do not want to know anything about the previous Conservative Government. What we are now interested in is what the manifesto of the Labour Government, who are now in power, said. What happened to us is irrelevant because we have been virtually wiped out.

With the greatest respect, if the noble Lord starts to preach to this Government about energy prices, it is right for me to point out that the highest energy prices occurred under his Government’s stewardship.

That may well be so; it was probably as a result of our pursuing these green policies, which has led to higher prices and which some of us think was probably rather mistaken. We are now in a position where we continue to pursue a green agenda.

My Lords, the prices were the highest prices we had because the previous Tory Government failed to do anything about our dependence on foreign gas. When the war in Ukraine happened, gas prices spiked and the noble Lord’s Government ended up spending £40 billion on subsidising bill payers across domestic and businesses. That money was spent for absolutely nothing—no long-term benefit at all.

It seems to me that, earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, answered a question that was not the exam question. I do not understand why he brought immigration numbers into the equation, and I do not understand why—

Order! We cannot have an exchange like this.

I thank my noble friend for answering the question for me.

It was a different exam question.

I just do not know where we think we are going on this. Surely the only thing that matters is the commitments that this Government have made. They have now been in power for six months, and the commitments that they make are the things that matter. What the previous Government did has been rejected by the electorate, and we must now to look at things again. I do not think that we should be held by anything that happened in previous Governments, because the electorate made it quite clear that they did not want to have anything to do with it.

What matters now is the commitments made by the Labour Government. If they think that they are going to reduce our energy bills by £300 in real terms, that should go down in legislation as a commitment from them. It is a figure that they have come up with; we did not dream of it. It was even in the Labour manifesto at the election, was it not? Therefore, we should see this commitment put down in statute so that something is done to keep to it.

I cannot quite understand the attitude of the Liberal Democrats, because they are keener than anybody on ensuring that we do not produce our own oil and gas from the North Sea. The Labour Government have cancelled the exploration licences for there, which means that we will be dependent on foreign supplies whatever happens. How the noble Earl can say that is a terrible problem when he supports not developing our own resources in the North Sea I cannot imagine.

This amendment is certainly something that we should vote for. The Government should be more than happy to be pinned down on this commitment, since they have made it quite clear that they believe in it. If they believe in it, why do they do not put it down in the Bill?

Can I press the noble Lord before he sits down? How is this amendment consistent with the conventions of the UK Parliament? It seems to me that it is not, and I would like an explanation, please.

The noble Lord probably knows more about the consistency of the UK Parliament than I do, but this seems to me to be infinitely sensible. I did not ask the Labour Government to commit themselves to lowering energy bills by £300, but they have done so. Therefore, they should be happy to see it in the Bill. I do not what the problem is, really.

On a point of personal clarification, I mentioned it because there was an undertaking, made publicly, that net immigration would come down to 10,000.

Order! We are not discussing an immigration Bill. We are discussing an energy Bill, so could we stick to order and stick to the scope of the amendment?

My Lords, I shall speak against Amendments 23 and 24. If the Conservative Benches had put forward something saying that Labour should be held to account for the promises that they have made, then yes, they should. Should those promises be enacted in this overpoliticised amendment? No, because that is not the way that we do things.

This is a very politicised amendment. It does nothing to help bill payers, nothing to make Great British Energy any better at delivering for bill payers and nothing to reduce costs for bill payers. Amendments 23 and 24 are amendments for leaflets and nothing more. They are pointless, petty grandstanding.

What? Leaflets?

Yes, they can write a quick leaflet saying that they held the Government to account, when actually they achieved nothing other than tabling an amendment. The last Tory Government had a de facto ban on onshore wind, did little to develop renewable technologies, left us dependent on Russian gas and ended up spending £40 billion subsidising bill payers to import foreign gas, for little or no long-term benefit. The previous Government gave up on delivering on nearly all energy-efficient measures and left UK citizens in cold and damp homes. We believe that, if done well, GB Energy will provide energy security, reduce energy bills, create green jobs and kick-start economic growth. Many of these arguments also apply to Amendment 24.

Without wasting time, our response is much the same as to the previous amendment. Frankly, we feel that holding the Government to account by enacting something in a Bill is pretty delusional. It would be far better to do that outside of the Chamber.

My Lords, I resist these two amendments. My noble friend Lord Rooker, who knows more about parliamentary procedure than almost anyone in either House, is absolutely right about the inappropriateness of these kinds of amendments. I do not want to carry on this enjoyable debate with the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, but I think it takes the biscuit in view his Government’s record. Also, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, I do not recall the last Government ever agreeing to change legislation in the way that has been suggested.

I want to allow the noble Lord, Lord Offord, to call a vote tonight, as I am sure he is very anxious to do, but the fact is that the only way to guarantee energy security and protect bill payers is to speed up the transition to homegrown energy; that is what we were elected on, that is the basis of this Bill and we are receiving huge support for doing so. Surely, the experience in the last few months and years of the kind of gas price shocks that we have seen, which have helped to drive increases and led to the introduction of the price cap, tells us that we have to get out of our dependence on fossil fuels and rely on homegrown energy.

As far as bills are concerned, the independent National Energy System Operator has confirmed that our 2030 clean power goal is achievable and can create a cheaper, more secure energy system. The Climate Change Committee confirms that a clean energy future is the best way to make British energy independent and protect bill payers, create good jobs and tackle the climate crisis.

As far as the question of employment is concerned, our expectation across this Parliament, in the early stages of the company, is that Great British Energy will employ 200 to 300 people at its Aberdeen headquarters. But, more substantially, through its activities and investments, GBE will also create and support thousands of jobs across the country. This is what we should focus on. I hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord Offord, puts this to the vote, the House will reject it.

Before the Minister sits down, can he help me? I have been here since just after the debate started and the Minister has made some incredibly positive contributions today and has transitioned well from health to his current brief, but I am surprised that, in his answer to this particular amendment, he has not mentioned the £300. We have had a variety of quotes from various Labour politicians in the election campaign who mentioned £300, which is a specific point in the amendment. Will the Minister comment on when he thinks this Government will reduce energy prices, and will it be by up to £300?

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his kind intervention. I actually did this job from 2008 to 2010, so I have some experience in this area. I am not going to answer the question in the way that he has asked me to. I am confident that the policies we are putting in place will lead to homegrown, secure energy and that, as a result, we will see a reduction in real terms in prices over the years ahead.

My Lords, may I just come back and apologise, as I did not know—

My Lords, we are on Report. Reference was made earlier to the conventions of the House. It seems to me that the debate is getting very diffuse and not within the advice in the Companion about behaviour on Report.

We should give the Chair more powers.

Yes.

My Lords, I remind you all of what the Prime Minister said:

“I stand by everything in our manifesto and one of the things I made clear in the election campaign is I wouldn’t make a single promise or commitment that I didn’t think we could deliver in government”.

The number of £300 is not our number. The number comes from the Labour manifesto and a commitment to the British people.

The great British people think that GB Energy is a new electricity company that is going to deliver them cheaper energy; what we have discovered is that it is actually an investment plan employing 200 people in Aberdeen. It is a big delta: 650,000 jobs compared to 200 jobs rising to 1,000. These are not our numbers; these are the Government’s numbers. All these amendments are trying to do is hold the Government to account on commitments made in the election campaign, and I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Ayes 121, Noes 131.

Amendment 23 disagreed.